STEEM: The Disproportionate Power Balance with Downvotes by bengy

hive-174578 · @bengy · Feb 6 '20

$21.29

STEEM: The Disproportionate Power Balance with Downvotes

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<center>![](https://images.unsplash.com/photo-1436812911242-3d475df4bdd1?ixlib=rb-1.2.1&ixid=eyJhcHBfaWQiOjEyMDd9&auto=format&fit=crop&w=1350&q=80)</center>

<center>[Unsplash](https://unsplash.com/photos/ob-hsLNxYPc)</center>


One of the changes that came about with the last STEEM Hard Fork was the introduction of a pool of free downvotes to help counter disagreements about reward distribution (mostly caused by bid bots). In general, under the #newsteem banner, it appears to have made the bid-bot model unviable as most of the bot owners have turned their hand to curation instead (although, the success and quality of that curation is a bit up for debate at times...). 

However, I would say that the main driver for this change was the change to the 50/50 model for author and curation shares of a post payout. This creates a much larger incentive to curate if you have a large SP stake rather than to take payments for a service that can't return short term ROI for a bidder. 

The campaign to reduce the effectiveness of the bidbot model was led by @ocd and @acidyo (amongst others), and it was characterised by the proportionate downvoting of bot boosted posts to reduce the ROI to 0% rather than to create a loss for the bidders. This was in line with the reasoning that bidding was NOT for short term ROI gain but for promotion and visibility. 

The key point here was the concept of proportionate downvoting. On STEEM, the power of the large accounts is such that their votes are disproportionately effective on most other accounts that are smaller. If you are hitting at your own size, then it can be absorbed via a self-vote or if you have a shield of voters around you. You just eat the downvote and move on... 

However, if you are a smaller, then you are likely to get swamped unless you happen to have a few friendly large benefactors protecting you (which most of us don't, and this is NOT a sustainable solution for mass onboarding of the public). It is even trickier if you don't want to get embroiled in a flag war... and you just don't retaliate (aka, being a nice person and not escalating...).

<center>![](https://images.unsplash.com/photo-1477865634015-0b232c1dd56a?ixlib=rb-1.2.1&ixid=eyJhcHBfaWQiOjEyMDd9&auto=format&fit=crop&w=656&q=80)</center>

<center>[Unsplash](https://unsplash.com/photos/MN31CWOoEmc)</center>

Now, I get to the point of my post... 

One of the nicer ways for a small to mid level account (like mine...) to support others in a long term sense is the Steem Basic Income program (SBI). By sending 1 STEEM to sponsor a different account, I am essentially locking up that STEEM away from the open market to provide long-term support to another account that is likely to be smaller than me. 

This is done as a gift, knowing that I essentially forfeit 50% of the benefits of the sponsorship... whilst knowing that I am providing an ongoing gift to the sponsored account rather than a single one time sugar hit of a big vote (2 cents... ha ha...) or an injection of 1 STEEM. This is a long term view to supporting accounts, that works in sympathy with the curation projects of #newsteem, however, long-term projects are notoriously difficult to enact in this modern attention challenged age.... 

Unlike the bid-bots of old... SBI is a terrible ROI... but that said, it is a gift of support. ROI is the bane of STEEM and cryptocurrencies in general, as novice "investors" think that this is the most important metric of any asset! In fact, it is a measure that is useful... but not in the short term way that most "investors" have come to think of it!

I would argue that SBI is actually the more effective model for the public onboarding of users... whilst curation projects are great, the idea of receiving a big vote for one thing and then not for another can be a bit of a roller-coaster for new users and quite confusing.... the steady support of SBI from people who are interested in supporting you long term is a steadier way of growing... slow... but steady. 

SBI has been shown to be ethical (blacklisting and removing abusers), trustworthy and honest in it's dealings.... and this was present before it was fashionable to show these traits openly in the #newsteem ecosystem. 

<hr>


I sponsor people via @pifc (Pay it Forward Curation) and @abh12345 (Engagement League) as well as two weekly contests (a game called Guess the Word and a different more open ended question post). It is part of of my way of returning back to others in the same way that I was helped... 

However, there have been some who disagree with this SBI model of sustainable long-term support in a gifting manner of sponsorship. This is STEEM, people can do what they want (this may not be sustainable...)... there is one account that has settled one a proportionate downvoting response... I disagree, but am happy with that outcome, but it is a price that I'm willing to pay in order to gift to another person. 

However, there is another account that is hitting much much harder in a disproportionate response... this highlights the problem with the STEEM chain. There is no response that I can make if they are unwilling to listen... I can't (and won't retaliate)... I have no shield of big account friends and the SBI community is by definition a collection of small accounts.

So, it highlights the problem that an account that is large has no stake risk in attacking smaller accounts disproportionately whilst the little accounts, even when banding together, can not stand up for themselves. I would argue that this is not a favourable outcome for the long term survival of STEEM. 

There needs to be some stake risk for some actions on STEEM, voting and downvoting can be cast at the moment with no care for consequences (I have another post about that...), this creates a situation where there is no inherent risk for anti-social behaviour. Now, in an ideal world, people would be just good and there would be no need for any moderating risk... let's just say that the world is not perfect... 

There is also the divide that some of us are attached to our blogs and posts (like me...) and care if they are attacked... whilst there are others who have little attachment to their posts and use their accounts like money pots, and don't care if they are attacked. This is an obvious weakness of asymmetry that means that downvotes are much more effective against those who care... aka, the builders!

So, I am floating the idea... that some actions on STEEM need to have some SP based stake risk... in the same way that other chains have penalties for producing bad blocks or bad consensus calculations.... 





















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properties (23)vote details (408)

voter	rshares	pct
tombstone	2,894,643,087,584	9.18%
boombastic	2,919,499,185	26.25%
gregory-f	456,322,963,570	25%
adsactly	5,406,391,651,719	50%
eeks	2,263,022,788,966	100%
mangou007	13,448,885,210	9%
bitshares101	85,447,441,148	25%
ausbitbank	494,810,951,184	20%
krystle	18,980,770,419	16%
randomblock1	696,570,224	7.5%
bert0	38,816,648,567	9%
gammagooblin	8,123,956,681	26.25%
shadowspub	6,708,544,330	6.56%
holoz0r	1,272,046,396	3.5%
joanstewart	24,190,604,963	70%
dexter-k	26,002,249,664	13.13%
morkrock	391,470,455,553	100%
whatsup	1,049,250,906,734	100%
katharsisdrill	48,876,089,489	7%
gamer00	709,396,143,536	100%
simonjay	14,634,961,168	5%
barton26	19,442,808,653	100%
oleg326756	10,097,819,402	25%
edb	1,898,842,729	5%
lennstar	313,105,539,753	100%
ethandsmith	474,048,921,604	100%
dreemsteem	1,413,197,483	25%
anthonyadavisii	170,406,612,930	49%
chesatochi	465,943,052,183	100%
shafay	5,179,274,341	26.25%
driptorchpress	36,295,444,513	100%
tarazkp	658,635,801,991	28%
steemfeed	20,026,768,147	100%
ambyr00	29,260,786,444	10%
pbock	2,326,080,027	12.5%
alexis555	1,354,278,176,448	17%
azzurra92	4,188,146,574	26.25%
preparedwombat	66,940,686,714	23%
freebornsociety	7,468,525,839	6%
tbnfl4sun	34,806,193,743	20%
sarasate	25,867,052,631	26.25%
ma1neevent	17,166,022,480	15%
vannfrik	9,909,723,409	21%
grider123	21,754,469,878	100%
barbara-orenya	357,766,873,781	56%
scrooger	748,973,623	1%
robi	10,958,211,572	26.25%
skye1	53,087,996	4%
forykw	12,199,758,967	5%
xplosive	24,878,985,487	100%
mikepedro	1,395,068,231	20%
gohba.handcrafts	5,345,209,359	5%
ninahaskin	42,153,265,489	45%
handofzara	3,686,585,923	10%
wishmaiden	1,568,672,906	7.5%
zerotoone	3,033,058,760	7.5%
enjar	72,917,424,538	30%
idas4you	12,249,090,576	26.25%
kjaeger	110,221,652	50%
teamaustralia	3,035,495,606	25%
bmj	2,845,270,914	14%
centerlink	268,261,794,634	40%
jayna	148,113,421,468	59%
techken	25,655,616	0.2%
insteem	4,488,417,259	26.25%
papilloncharity	450,671,232,092	100%
thegreens	11,186,400,253	10.5%
lupo	6,698,188,498	26.25%
pipiczech	47,758,042,787	100%
forexbrokr	222,923,440,051	50%
derekrichardson	13,272,138,633	100%
eturnerx	145,557,609,004	15%
felt.buzz	55,233,440,089	50%
beautifulbullies	11,038,217,119	43%
fat-elvis	255,075,005	12.5%
howo	989,617,257,293	35%
jesus.christ	464,482,489	5%
rollingthunder	2,649,657,554	7.5%
dwingsworld	702,260,009	10%
ocd	4,270,531,138,027	35%
yoogyart	20,967,607,966	50%
macchiata	5,776,097,901	35%
davedickeyyall	73,377,527,632	6.25%
oneray	6,108,637,341	50%
watersnake101	12,513,827,240	100%
onethousandwords	683,207,395	20%
lizelle	122,967,556,706	100%
oldman28	26,267,374,725	45%
podnikatel	1,481,688,176	2.63%
a-alice	567,162,448	7.5%
fionasfavourites	59,332,642,110	100%
emergehealthier	63,300,188,183	30%
ragnarokdel	7,798,829,279	100%
mrsquiggle	56,349,249,839	20%
bashadow	40,933,279,620	50%
webcoop	2,745,044,706	20%
kimzwarch	7,943,692,139	4%
fishyculture	1,598,673,195	12.5%
stsl	30,648,546,436	25%
vieira	20,401,055,785	100%
drax	111,158,224,836	30%
therealwolf	3,616,657,277,034	26.25%
roleerob	275,378,740,183	100%
revisesociology	180,056,877,347	20%
roselifecoach	10,100,005,592	100%
filipino	72,980,510	10%
thedarkhorse	264,475,683,873	100%
jlsplatts	6,792,640,795	1.5%
hannesl	13,710,075,332	26.25%
spellmaker	15,684,686,427	100%
isnochys	29,767,435,606	26%
dinglehopper	4,058,343,916	10%
flamingirl	108,099,738,107	9%
globetrottergcc	7,688,855,130	26.25%
backtomining	8,315,604,486	10.5%
amalinavia	18,882,487,935	50%
cjsean	567,104,637	10%
wonderwop	29,194,593,648	55%
thekittygirl	180,791,790,080	100%
blockbrothers	2,638,947,106,092	100%
ecoinstante	6,743,996,891	80%
eonwarped	243,327,709,522	10.5%
postpromoter	1,562,249,671,716	24%
heyimsnuffles	1,631,512,887	5%
wolfnworbeikood	6,960,082,513	13%
thevillan	3,048,215,299	2%
lordnigel	643,174,453	14%
tcpaikano	1,904,192,438	17.5%
sagarthukral	14,537,009,896	26.25%
smartsteem	5,797,609,099,639	26.25%
jrvacation	31,686,445,947	17.5%
sarakey	387,820,706	100%
josephsavage	19,454,600,118	52.5%
itchyfeetdonica	37,738,241,215	7%
coffeesource.net	13,413,098,803	80%
bebeomega	776,949,440	26.25%
nathen007	18,884,369,519	100%
sneakyninja	4,804,703,497	75%
naymur	1,134,522,081	10%
rombtc	2,168,473,774	17.5%
rimicane	8,288,637,259	24%
tomatom	1,181,550,595	17.5%
fourfourfun	1,904,816,199	7.5%
eaglespirit	10,769,200,717	5%
freemon	9,432,356	8%
abitcoinskeptic	99,442,046,898	15%
bossel	52,589,228,787	100%
jongolson	384,993,464,802	50%
iamjadeline	2,637,538,786	1.5%
saintchristopher	34,192,675,545	100%
spiritualmax	11,363,795,621	26.25%
stuffbyspencer	4,416,978,837	50%
dynamicgreentk	1,396,649,042	15%
bengy	0	0%
tryskele	25,332,782,148	50%
vgholdingsllc	29,378,494,623	50%
terrylovejoy	13,119,107,021	16%
fullcoverbetting	141,043,298,176	75%
errajesh	4,289,604,601	26.25%
thehoneys	1,022,014,300	3.75%
thespacebetween	0	100%
yadah04	861,869,340	7.5%
themanwithnoname	2,282,349,216	10%
silentscreamer	17,901,045,945	80%
shmoogleosukami	19,183,964,575	100%
nedy	16,349,334,574	26.25%
mastergerund	4,653,079,198	100%
ocd-witness	436,665,566,020	35%
brittandjosie	151,090,111,897	49%
ericburgoyne	4,175,189,503	12.5%
raise-me-up	0	0.01%
felixgarciap	1,931,573,390	10%
joelai	21,737,395,597	50%
fmbs25	40,586,039,808	100%
allyson19	1,079,927,059	10%
kieranstone	2,415,009,370	10%
layra	8,499,835,447	26.25%
tamala	584,718,411	3%
steemporras	3,904,970,501	30%
redheadpei	37,008,887,122	100%
positiveninja	5,640,199,535	20%
miroslavrc	33,068,889,889	17.5%
simplymike	176,765,094,071	50%
lordjames	22,821,266,846	13.12%
myprecious	12,546,010,254	25%
kyuubi	31,657,069,393	26.25%
shaheerbari	1,257,494,615	10%
amico	587,280,186,558	100%
scottshots	3,056,107,657	5%
musicapoetica	1,734,679,570	50%
vcclothing	15,600,561,163	40%
supersoju	13,435,683,442	6%
ronaldoavelino	7,955,509,525	0.75%
hlezama	20,013,761,232	50%
stmdev	82,334,453	1%
thevote	264,242,949,319	7.92%
dixiesilverminer	910,189,472	12.5%
carolinacardoza	27,198,670,685	100%
orkin420	4,016,955,490	100%
bobaphet	1,857,889,218	2%
melbourneswest	1,920,332,417	20%
philippekiene	1,480,744,776	6%
chuuuckie	17,242,010,136	17.5%
sustainablelivin	860,339,384	7.5%
cryptoslicex	545,118,137	20%
angelinafx	11,673,894,812	3.5%
tresor	25,216,473,347	9%
quochuy	43,366,621,314	7.73%
andrewsmodels	19,859,430,989	100%
steemitbloggers	460,037,167,620	50%
msearles	703,451,651	15%
indigoocean	25,257,930,950	11.55%
lifeofryan	3,227,778,053	20%
a1-shroom-spores	742,926,492	7.5%
birdsinparadise	52,436,770,320	35%
ikarus56	1,620,929,554	8%
musicvoter	5,485,113,158	1%
nickyhavey	731,993,609,215	100%
slobberchops	519,863,170,767	20%
venzam	782,534,730	17.5%
crystalhuman	2,357,973,750	24%
pladozero	48,482,513,025	10%
spreadfire1	21,541,929,468	26.25%
minerthreat	89,472,378,487	26.25%
nateaguila	131,355,422,481	5%
aro.steem	10,259,999,544	5.25%
thelaundrylady	37,013,259,368	100%
khiabels	664,176,235	10%
free-reign	29,675,241,509	50%
ironclad010	597,297,573	80%
mikemoi	32,584,847,118	26.25%
sillycat	561,542,192	100%
wizardzap	4,240,554,963	50%
wizardblas	0	50%
archs	0	50%
archmul	0	50%
warriorstab	99,376,669	50%
warriorstrike	0	50%
musicvoter2	28,194,081,134	3%
bdmillergallery	169,369,323,446	50%
stay4true	341,408,764	26.25%
niouton	4,267,590,289	16%
blockurator	39,565,763,610	100%
bananamemos	523,955,010	3%
sky.nikolas20	4,159,527,419	26.25%
sgbonus	1,961,853,798	5%
soma909	4,981,041,394	75%
yougotavote	897,632,529	14.4%
nin4i	136,342,062	100%
ssg-community	774,023,619,809	11.5%
ashikstd	2,024,267,609	5%
suonghuynh	570,954,203,960	3.5%
dynamicsteemians	1,035,832,417	15%
bingbabe	3,829,736,981	20%
raggypoo	539,584,932	100%
atombot	2,013,238,688	20%
frugal-fun	1,356,104,194	50%
mrnightmare89	1,123,803,297	2.63%
thedailysneak	21,520,202,998	75%
nutritree	0	50%
ocdb	22,413,581,972,715	24%
mastersa	567,311,930	9%
xmrking	8,873,005,937	26.25%
lillywilton	803,869,759	20%
digi-me	16,639,448,697	100%
drinkyouroj	2,095,301,148	26.25%
jcbit	289,228,132,715	26.25%
smartvote	409,380,287,929	3.5%
deividluchi	736,040,912	20%
gpcx86	994,169,232	23%
cryptowithincin	19,292,152,005	76%
jk6276	1,528,288,644	2.5%
honeycup-waters	985,845,165	7.5%
partitura	253,035,166,167	25%
quatro	703,436,985	10%
vegemitekid	4,072,192,307	4%
orthodoxnudism	10,181,999,153	100%
sbi7	365,663,983,793	47.12%
skylinebuds	1,654,841,033	2%
london65	585,918,687	10%
voxmortis	1,790,310,751	0.15%
metametheus	18,731,413,522	50%
pifc	55,569,091,589	25%
drfk	4,326,379,621	13.13%
upvoteshares	47,003,218,573	20%
laissez-faire	101,410,331	100%
donefezy	624,373,972	5%
cultus-forex	15,975,630,198	15.75%
the.success.club	5,080,043,658	7.5%
steemjetmedia	85,952,409,075	26.25%
memeteca	2,503,370,307	9%
mariita52	11,538,102,153	100%
pushpedal	1,304,916,716	17.5%
minnowbuilder	9,048,409,976	12.08%
teenagecrypto	8,517,719,492	100%
alphaccino.art	3,852,760,389	15%
elieserurabno	131,011,543	10%
steemcryptosicko	171,208,524,336	7%
mango-juice	1,814,463,836	5%
xcountytravelers	10,585,730,014	25%
shadowmask	2,851,029,426	50%
ladyangelwolf	551,655,914	100%
glastar	3,995,490,983	1%
ecodesigns	551,139,282	7.5%
incinboost	14,983,129,406	20.21%
owasco	52,282,506,485	100%
crypt0renegade	27,053,447,247	26.25%
minnowbuilder3	30,552,063,600	42%
edriseur	138,066,409,105	35%
dismayedworld	3,892,016,710	20%
steemlogs	4,145,896,895	100%
swiftbot	578,070,601	5%
steemtank	21,259,403,319	26.25%
noekie	24,902,847,897	75%
wolfinator	6,805,130,608	26.25%
crowdwitness	7,382,165,433	4%
ctime	-9,873,791,071,813	-100%
andresurrego	12,104,614,801	26.25%
rem-steem	73,961,970,923	50%
archisteem-cn	1,610,723,630	15%
limka	62,826,222	100%
gardengnomepubs	1,256,621,797	25%
steemdapps	27,052,281,390	26.25%
cabalen	626,369,421	10%
simply-happy	10,785,240,356	23.62%
jadung	594,940,106	10%
fitinfunfood	10,158,753,708	40%
wissenskrieger	5,168,264,742	100%
theithei	628,280,280	10%
kryptodenno	132,586,398,845	20%
kharma.scribbles	372,942,790	4.92%
martbarras	0	100%
aaronkroeblinger	9,139,012,369	26.25%
itisjustme	2,199,052,198	100%
smalltall	2,735,565,399	17.5%
squareonefarms	4,010,653,833	17.5%
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coredump	139,194,428	3%
epicdice	184,776,082,597	7.87%
rodrook	124,119,881,724	100%
dicetime	-27,335,688,136	-100%
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akumagai	1,542,366,643	100%
ernestapondo	783,530,776	10%
charcoalbuffet	3,561,894,326	100%
borjan	41,276,493,657	24%
tinyhousecryptos	539,186,887	5%
victartex	766,823,835	12%
ocd-accountant	5,428,486,458	14%
infinitelinks	239,488,343	80%
jackfitzgerald	168,899,737	50%
maxwellmarcusart	26,524,259,968	50%
golden.future	11,651,986,291	12%
wwwiebe	121,236,812,421	100%
kgswallet	630,170,417	12%
twenty1	394,176,853	50%
thebarteringchip	1,217,084,347	100%
wizardofaus	110,724,728	4%
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amico.pal	126,432,311	100%
adsup	4,078,400,320,445	100%
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marlians.ccc	1,742,444,575	100%
felt.buzz.neox	353,798,792	100%
revise.leo	95,790,877	20%
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drlobes	1,423,170,748	7.5%
mk-pal-token	1,165,504,752	32.74%
mk-marlians-tkn	3,382,213,878	87.16%
partitura.neo	24,541,822	25%
partitura.pal	29,685,683	25%
tagflagger	0	-100%
hone.heke	14,470,468,716	50%
spinvest-leo	3,899,803,406	5%
madisonelizabeth	568,592,933	100%
johannpiber.pal	51,228,842	15%
sullijay1	542,001,208	70%
bilpcoinrecords	2,071,280,954	2%
tonimontana.neo	0	0.47%
sonic-isaria	1,881,622,912	50%
sqljoker	31,973,879	2%
amico.marlians	271,923,388	100%
mowemu	1,598,411,119	7.5%
creativetru.neox	549,654,391	30%
monkeydex	539,792,868	100%
fenngen	1,826,723,323	20%
steemlondon	1,095,492,972	6%
ibt-survival	182,557,203,169	50%
stemisaria	1,861,931,451	100%
dblogvoter	44,643,482	1.5%
tonystarkalive	28,690,420	2%
teamstraya	657,372,808	50%
neoxvoter	79,991,412	1.5%
mygov	17,806,204,219	75%
angel33	467,388,872	100%
bilpcoinpower	179,517,500	8%
cam1lo	0	100%
toni.pal	0	3.15%
atma.love	410,146,894,782	100%
zerojazz	0	100%
inuinews	0	100%
nikita201	0	100%

@revisesociology · Feb 6 '20

The only solution is some kind of 'heeling' account. 

NB SBI actually has one of the best ROIs on the platform, it's not 50% like some of those BOTs were, but it's getting on for 20%, which beats the 11-12% you can get from @dlease.

👍 logiczombie, bengy

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@bengy · Feb 6 '20

$0.02

For a healing account, you need big friends... Sadly, we don't have them.

The SBI ROI is achieved over a very very long time period, this making it a good incentive to stay and help build Steem. This is contrast to the Bid bot ROI which was short term and encouraged very short term maximisation behaviour.

Likewise, with the leases, you know directly who you are sponsoring.. Making it a conscious decision, rather than the abstracted ROI of a lease. In the same way that ethical stocks are a conscious choice rather than the profit at all costs mentality that genealogy prevails.

👍 dustsweeper, logiczombie

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@revisesociology · Feb 6 '20

There's only one account I know of DVing with 200K SP, a vote-trail with 100s of SBI users would go some way to countering that at least. 

Don't forget that's really only 40K SP worth of downvotes. 

Unless there's more people who do so?

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1 reply

@logiczombie · Feb 7 '20

$0.02

> For a healing account, you need big friends... Sadly, we don't have them.

If we rally around @freezepeach, (by delegating even a token amount of steem) we have a chance to build-a-champion for ourselves.

👍 dustsweeper, hone.heke, bengy, kiwisteem

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5 replies

@logiczombie · Feb 7 '20

@freezepeach tries to help mitigate abusive downvotes, but they only have about 4,000 steem-power.

👍 hone.heke, kiwisteem

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@fionasfavourites · Feb 6 '20

$0.02

Bengy, this is probably one of the most sane and sanguine analyses I have seen about SBI, downvotes and bidbots.  I am one of those accounts that took a beating because of having invested SBI so I cashed in.  Although I still get downvotes, they have no value.  Similarly, I don't understand what precipitates them - and the accounts concerned are just serial downvoters.  No posts, no upvotes.  Just downvotes.

👍 whatsup, grider123, bengy

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@bengy · Feb 6 '20

Yes, the little ones are annoying but don't mean anything. It is the big ones that are a problem. They try to convince by being aggressive... It is the internet way of doing things!

👍 logiczombie

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@fionasfavourites · Feb 6 '20

$0.02

> It is the internet way of doing things

Sigh!  Nope it's just the bullying way of doing things.  I agree.

👍 dustsweeper, logiczombie

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1 reply

@logiczombie · Feb 7 '20

> - and the accounts concerned are just serial downvoters. No posts, no upvotes. Just downvotes.

What do you think about perhaps requiring an active post as a prerequisite for downvoting (or voting in general). If you have no active posts (less than 7 days old), then you are frozen out of the whole upvote/downvote game.

👍 bengy, kiwisteem

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@fionasfavourites · Feb 9 '20

$0.03

I like that idea.  I wonder if the powers that be, would.

👍 dustsweeper, logiczombie

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1 reply

@bengy · Feb 9 '20

$0.02

I think this is still flawed... you can make a post that you have no "attachment" to... and gain the right of entry to up and downvote... and still have no consequence, because people would attack something that you have hold no intrinsic value in.

... or you gain most from "curation", then the loss of a tiny amount of author rewards is just not going to matter one way or another!

👍 dustsweeper, logiczombie

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3 replies

@nickyhavey · Feb 6 '20

I sold all my sbi shares as it I see it as some kind of bid bot service, except you get the returns over a long period rather than in one post. 

I'm not downvoting anyone who uses it yet though as I believe it's helped with onboarding and retaining users but it's a grey area. I've seen posts that have blatant plagiarism being upvoted by sbi and I'll start downvoting if I see things like this happening. Also seems sbi just upvotes blindly regardless of length or quality of post - have also seen 20 word "shit posts" get more from sbi than others who have written much more in depth... 

Jury's out

👍 pharesim, bengy

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@bengy · Feb 6 '20 (edited)

Yes, there are people that game the system. But @josephsavage will remove those accounts from @steembasicincome if you let him know. Like the rest of Steem, it is hard for them to cover the whole ground!

After all, I see notable curation projects get it wrong as well in the same way, but it doesn't mean that the whole project is terrible! Downvoting the bad posts is logical and rational, attacking the project and sponsors is not so much..

PS, for the shit posts, that would be a useful case for downvoting... Hitting the sponsors is not really the way forward on that problem!

Pps, also there is the idea of the giving.. The long term support is good for retention.

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@nickyhavey · Feb 6 '20

Let's face it, auto upvotes on author accounts should be stopped completely and only allowed for curation trails that are manually curating and have guidelines/vetting in place - otherwise we'll just go round and round in circles (jerking, lol).

It does seem to be a case where "curating" now is just auto upvote at between 3-5 minutes for max rewards.

Pre HF 21, SBI was a valuable tool and I still think the intentions are great but I agree with what abitcoinskeptic said 100% really.

Rewards should be given in tokens now with sbi rather than steem which would still facilitate the idea of giving/supporting. There are many other ways of doing it around here now since EIP.

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9 replies

@whatsup · Feb 6 '20

$0.04

I've been a huge advocate of downvotes, but I stopped using most of mine due to some of outrageous downvotes of the large accounts and trails.

Most of us will handle a downvote or two with dignity and class, but when one group decides another is bad and has a huge amount of voting power, I was turned off quickly.

I also think that SBI was a great project and I think it is clear anytime you look at Trending that curation isn't about quality, so I have no idea what the puritans are fussing about some projects like SBI that does good work and helps with retention is.

👍 jongolson, logiczombie, joythewanderer, bengy, fitzgibbon

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voter	rshares	pct
joythewanderer	9,952,576,039	1%
fitzgibbon	64,460,803	100%
jongolson	190,559,346,979	25%
bengy	8,891,853,005	7%
logiczombie	10,831,805,586	100%

@bengy · Feb 6 '20

$0.02

I have mixed feelings about downvotes... There is a case for them, but I think that there is a problem with them being consequence free. Like all things, no risk of consequences leads to some odd behaviours... For instance, if you can crash a world economy (GFC) through consequence free actions and still be rich... Why not do it?

Proportionate downvoting is useful to signal disagreement... But what is chump change for one is a huge hit for another. It takes some level of wisdom to understand that instead of mashing 100%

SBI does well with long term support, and this is a model that is great for retention (the weakness of Steem). The curation projects are great, but having sugar hit means you need more of them...

👍 whatsup, logiczombie

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properties (23)vote details (2)

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whatsup	0 B		123,912,249,545	12%
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@s3rg3 · Feb 7 '20

$0.04

Agree. I still don’t know why people labeled themselves as some sort of “Steemit Police” Who cares if someone is using a tag several times instead of one time? Who are we to downvote zero quality posts? Do we create more valuable and quality content ourselves? Just have fun posting bogs and comments and just don’t always look at what others are doing. There is never consensus about what is quality and what is not. You post blogs to ventilate your opinion which you like others to read in my opinion. Live and let live

👍 whatsup, hone.heke, logiczombie, bengy, trailreward, lastditch

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bengy	8,772,575,590	7%
lastditch	174,891,999	16%
trailreward	3,219,337,321	16%
logiczombie	10,451,125,575	100%
hone.heke	13,706,655,159	50%

3 replies

@logiczombie · Feb 7 '20

> There is a case for them, but I think that there is a problem with them being consequence free.

What do you think about perhaps requiring an active post as a prerequisite for downvoting (or voting in general).  If you have no active posts (less than 7 days old), then you are frozen out of the whole upvote/downvote game.

👍 hone.heke, bengy, kiwisteem

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hone.heke	30,915,968,083	100%

33 replies

@fitzgibbon · Feb 6 '20

$0.03

I've always felt that the biggest Steem stakeholders often conduct themselves in ways that reflect very poorly on the Steem community as a whole. Giving them more downvoting and destructive power was bound to end badly.

The "I can do whatever I want with my stake" power-play mentality should be replaced with a "I will use my stake to nurture and support the community, especially newcomers and smaller accounts with original content". 

Some whales have been supportive since Steem inception since 2016, but in-fighting has always been way too prominent on this platform. I hope this improves, but until then personally I'm pretty passive here.

👍 whatsup, bengy

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@whatsup · Feb 6 '20

The thing is that we didn't give them more power, they gave it to themselves.  The largest accounts provided the most support for the EIP.

That is the weakness of a Stakebased system.  (DPOS)  One of the most difficult elements of decentralization is the big decisions are not made by the most qualified or educated, or with the most experience the decisions are made by those with Stake.

The largest Stakesholder mined the most in the early days.  Which also is not a skill set I  would necessarily equate with building a social media site.  :)

Sometimes understanding HOW something works is better than deciding how it should work.

In my opinion many of the whales could care less about the social network and it shows.

👍 bengy, fitzgibbon, abgra

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abgra	0	50%

2 replies

@brittandjosie · Feb 7 '20

$0.03

I stopped to but started using them on intro abuse some account above rep 53 make 6 or 7 of them than I use my downvotes instantly

👍 whatsup, bengy

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@logiczombie · Feb 7 '20

$0.03

Thank you for being reasonable.

👍 whatsup, kiwisteem

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@slobberchops · Feb 6 '20

I guess you mean the @mkkkk... account?

I have a lot of SBI's and that account no longer downvotes me as I don't delegate to SBI anymore. That is his beef, not bought SBI's but using delegation to have more SBI's and gain bigger votes.

I can see his reasoning to some extent. Are you getting DV's from this account and you don't delegate to SBI?

👍 bengy

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bengy	0 B		8,896,800,846	7%

@bengy · Feb 6 '20

They are downvoting anyone who sponsors a SBI, at least that was the last goalpost. Mmk, I have less a problem with... It is clear 5% per SBI sponsored. I don't like it... But okay...

There is another who hits hard (100%)and with no particular open reasoning.

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@barbara-orenya · Feb 7 '20

$0.03

I have been hit at full power by this one a few days ago because I rewarded a supportive action with SBI, it was as painful as working hard all day long for a charity and get a penalty and blame at the end of the day...these are not behaviours that make any people want to come or to stay...are we blind to that ? Do we want to recreate the same judgmental society everywhere, ..seriously ? 😉

👍 dustsweeper, bengy

properties (23)vote details (2)

2 replies

@fionasfavourites · Feb 6 '20

I sold all my SBI and that account is still downvoting me.

properties (22)

@fullcoverbetting · Feb 6 '20

$0.07

Indeed sometimes the steem ocean does feel like a toxic place. I am fairly used to getting the 10% downvotes which do take 0% away from the value of the post. But yesterday things did change. I did get a 100% downvote from a so called curator account, taking away 20% of the value of my post. I do think that when placing a downvote, the downvoter should be forced to add an explanation for the downvote. Only this measure would decrease the number of downvotes by a lot.
While receiving a downvote is bad enough, it is just worse when you don't know why you have been downvoted.

!trdo
!BEER

Cheers,
Peter

👍 atma.love, bengy, aristak

properties (23)vote details (3)

@trendotoken · Feb 6 '20

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properties (22)

@bengy · Feb 6 '20

Yes, the little ones are annoying but mean nothing... I've picked up more than a few of the large ones now.... 

It is weird that the best way to try and convince someone is by downvoting... no discussion no terms... lucky we don't conduct ourselves like this off the internet!

👍 logiczombie, aristak

properties (23)vote details (2)

@logiczombie · Feb 7 '20

Here's one of my recent efforts to speak reasonably on the subject of abusive downvotes,

https://steemit.com/steemit/@logiczombie/q5cex8

👍 hone.heke, bengy, kiwisteem, aristak

properties (23)vote details (4)

23 replies

@doingdailies · Feb 8 '20 (edited)

the little ones are growing accounts by the day ... 1000 x 15sp is 15.000 ... etcetera, no one seems to care since 'they mean nothing' but most of them share the same witnessvotes ...

check :

https://steemit.com/steemleo/@rudyardcatling/trollhunter20200203-202002030600485261

that's a collection that gets picked from downvotes on just two accounts ... every time there's more heh

corona only has a 3 to 4% mortality rate, globally thats nothing ... this place has gone to hell completely with HF21 and instead of trying some creative solution and stop the hyperinflation they simply disperse the value <b>down</b> to their clients (i have never known someone who expects me to sell the product im buying from them in order for me to make something of it b/c cases like that tend to be labelled pyramidschemes etc.etc ...
etecetera, lol i came by to see my !sbi status but its gone ... savage threw in the towel ?

heh, probably because of the steemit *spirit of collaboration* then

your opinion weighs as much as your wallet : if 500 people say yes and one guy with 10k SP says no then its no

the only solution is to BUY more and the only defense is to HAVE more ... nothing here is right anymore lol

but its been a protection racket from the start, if you didnt suck up to the mighty steemcleaners you would never get anywhere anyway and even the biggest success story you get here

is someone who no one has ever heard of if you move outside the little puddle of this 6k posts a day network

...not that im trying to be negative

i just dont like to be false-positive

it used to be

https://res.cloudinary.com/ddxo40bkm/image/upload/v1552045269/rootpage/cooltext263014691606796.png

but after a little more than three years i just keep hearing the same .. steem-engine is the most centralized dex on the planet (say they were to quit, what happens to the tokens?)

i could go on for a while but its actually what im trying to avoid lol : reacting to the steem(sh)it :D

my best guess is now they killed the bots (the bots, for which someone who's name we shant mention had written (and sold ... for good money) AALLLL the software ... (and i think is now actively praising apocalypse 21 ... or was in the propaganda-weeks before it) ... so they push tokens , on the centralized DEX ... happens to be the main investor the other one up there who has a finger in everything that actually makes something ... now tokens give merits (some do)

so they attack SBI, one of the longest running projects (i have one account that's been totally zeroed out, rep and all by some anti-sbi cunt) and next up ?

next up : tokens are evil if they get you something, you just need to buy them and dont ask questions (in the words of ojou-sama-the-advocate) and certainly not expect them to give you some profit

L M A O ...

dude bengy, mate ... i know you're too intelligent to believe any of that

👍 logiczombie, bengy

properties (23)vote details (2)

2 replies

@aristak · Feb 8 '20

I'm completely agree with you, @fullcoverbetting . The same I say, because something like that happened to me yesterday. It feels as if they want to sabotage your work and progress just because of the fact you post different than them, and that's horrible by experience :(

👍 tarazkp, abh12345, misterengagement

properties (23)vote details (3)

@fullcoverbetting · Feb 10 '20

!ENGAGE 5

👍 aristak

properties (23)vote details (1)

@misterengagement · Feb 10 '20

<center><div class="center">https://steemitimages.com/0x0/https://cdn.steemitimages.com/50x50/https://cdn.steemitimages.com/DQmdHfkhCPGYcfUqZqT4Br3nsmCpeVPj1BcLoepVX2PYeAE/engagetoken.png/ </div><br><br> @aristak you have received `5 ENGAGE` from @fullcoverbetting!<br>View and trade the tokens on [Steem Engine](https://steem-engine.com?p=market&t=ENGAGE).</center><br><hr><center><sup>This tip bot is powered by witness <a href="https://untersatz.steem.design">untersatz</a>!</sup></center>

👍 aristak

properties (23)vote details (1)

@baah · Feb 10 '20

I imagine that a lot of the forced "explanations" would be a spicy repertoire of singular but choice four letter words.

properties (22)

@beerlover · Feb 6 '20

<div class='pull-right'>https://cdn.steemitimages.com/DQmaHThyECGhEx8tSfHZbiMFRNYjJ35K92cDgiJjkzBUaJo/One%20sip%20of%20BEER%20for%20you.gif<p><sup><a href='https://steem-engine.com/?p=market&t=BEER'>View or trade </a> <code>BEER</code>.</sup></p></div><center><br> <p> Hey @bengy, here is a little bit of <code>BEER</code> from @fullcoverbetting for you. Enjoy it!</p> <p>Learn how to <a href='https://steemit.com/beer/@beerlover/what-is-proof-of-stake-with-beer'>earn FREE BEER each day </a> by staking.</p> </center><div></div>

properties (22)

@jongolson · Feb 6 '20

$0.03

thank you for posting this. 

i think this is such an important topic and here’s my biggest issue with it all. 

SBI’s biggest ROI is retention. 

People feel welcomed. Appreciated. And like they are valued on Steem from getting regular upvotes via SBI. 

This is why SBI is so important. It’s ability to make people feel welcomed on the blockchain. Because as we can see, it can be a vicious place when folks don’t agree. 

I hope more big players get behind and support SBI and what it does for user retention.

👍 eturnerx, bengy

properties (23)vote details (2)

@bengy · Feb 6 '20 (edited)

That is right. The biggest ROI is the fact that someone somewhere thought enough to give another a gift. This sharing, supporting and gifting (despite the current negative hit) is something that is not common in the get rich crypto world... It isn't that common in the regular financial world... And look where that has taken us... 

If we want to emulate the old money way of doing things... Then SBI is the wrong way and in the wrong place. If we want a different and better way, then SBI can be part of that solution. 

There are things that aren't measured in immediate economic terms, but do actually produce huge economic benefits... And as much as I like the boost from a curation account, that is more like the old trickle down model of decredited economic fairy tales if it the only way. 

SBI and curation work hand in hand and are two aspects of making this chain work.

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@abitcoinskeptic · Feb 6 '20

$0.09

The way I describe SBI is as a vote subscription service. Exactly like bidbots, there is no proof of brain. Similar to bidbots, you are buying votes, except you are just paying now for future votes. The main difference is with a bidbot, you get some, they get the rest. With SBI you get some and someone you named (perhaps your alt) gets the rest. It's vote-buying, it's just a less toxic form of vote-buying. SBI wasn't the only honest vote-buying service that would blacklist and ban really bad users either, OCDB only allowed whitelisted users to vote and quite a few would remove votes of abusers with enough pressure.

That said, I like SBI. I agree it is good for onboarding new users. However, I do wish that they would create their own token and payout in that. If you cannot create your own token for such a service, in the end of the day it is a tax on the platform. In other words, SBI is taxing everyone who doesn't use SBI. We didn't vote for it.

Still, I think it is a good tax. If it was put to a poll on the SPS/@steem.dao, it would probably beat the return proposal or any no easily. I don't know too many people who are actually against it. Most people are only against the actions of certain individuals abusing it who are banned. I say this as someone who wrote a post that helped SBI adapt to a post EIP hard fork consensus.

Less related to SBI, personally, I think the current solution of just using your downvotes how you want is most fair. I have more SP than some because I acquired it one way or another. It's proof of stake, the more you have the more influence you have. This works exactly the same regardless of the account. Just like SBI, there is no brain involved in having more or less.

If a project is using its upvotes or downvotes in a way you don't like, stop associating with it, or downvote it. Or if it doesn't produce content, downvote whoever or whatever it supports. This is a fundamental part of Steem which would need to be changed after a whole lot of discussion I argue is currently unnecessary. I'd save it and potential solutions including removing all rewards and paying out in SMTs, or worse some sort of centralized authority, for another rant.

One thing I don't personally like is auto downvote or downvote trails or delegating to anyone who downvotes. Unlike upvoting, I like to be in full control of my downvotes and know exactly who I am downvoting case by case and why. Call it a bias, but I think most people here share that bias. Getting random upvotes feels nice. Getting random downvotes sucks. We don't need bad feelings. That said, I don't think most decent (1000SP+) downvotes are random.

👍 nickyhavey, eturnerx, bdmillergallery, baah, shmoogleosukami, fionasfavourites, bengy

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@bengy · Feb 6 '20 (edited)

Phew... long post to address... in principle we are in agreement, just little nuances I think!

> The way I describe SBI is as a vote subscription service. Exactly like bidbots, there is no proof of brain. Similar to bidbots, you are buying votes, except you are just paying now for future votes. The main difference is with a bidbot, you get some, they get the rest. With SBI you get some and someone you named (perhaps your alt) gets the rest. It's vote-buying, it's just a less toxic form of vote-buying. SBI wasn't the only honest vote-buying service that would blacklist and ban really bad users either, OCDB only allowed whitelisted users to vote and quite a few would remove votes of abusers with enough pressure.

I agree that not all bidbots were unethical before #newsteem, there were some that also ran a whitelist... however, even ocdb recognised the problem that whitelisted authors would sometimes dip in quality.  

To be honest, sometimes (often?) the non-automated votes are not really proof of brain... more like proof of reading the headline and saw the cover image!

The major difference with SBI in comparison is that the benefits are spread so far out in time. With a bitbot, you only need to stay under the radar for the 7 day reward period and then you are in profit and winning... it really makes for an attractive game to try your hand at if you aren't particularly invested in your blog. With SBI, you are "at risk" for a very very long time... and you have much more than that single SBI share at risk if you are trying to game the system, it is your accumulated SBI stake. So, this is a model that is much more geared towards long-term social and beneficial growth behaviour. 

I know that people buy for their alts (I think I have a handful about 10-20 total on @msearles (my gaming and actifit stream) and @classical-radio (A curation account for Classical-music), but (without definite proof) I would say that this is a small problem... and not large one that should be used as a black mark against the whole project.

I would describe SBI more as a long-term investment lockup. 


> That said, I like SBI. I agree it is good for onboarding new users. However, I do wish that they would create their own token and payout in that. If you cannot create your own token for such a service, in the end of the day it is a tax on the platform. In other words, SBI is taxing everyone who doesn't use SBI. We didn't vote for it.

Agreed with the onboarding and rentention. Not sure about the taxing analogy... after all this could be applied to all things, any attempt to build a community could be classed as a way of redistributing to a closed circle and by extension a tax on any non-participants. 

> Still, I think it is a good tax. If it was put to a poll on the SPS/@steem.dao, it would probably beat the return proposal or any no easily. I don't know too many people who are actually against it. Most people are only against the actions of certain individuals abusing it who are banned. I say this as someone who wrote a post that helped SBI adapt to a post EIP hard fork consensus.

Yep... but I don't agree with the tax part! The banning of abusers is a good sign and one thing that I really agree with to keep the project honest. 


> Less related to SBI, personally, I think the current solution of just using your downvotes how you want is most fair. I have more SP than some because I acquired it one way or another. It's proof of stake, the more you have the more influence you have. This works exactly the same regardless of the account. Just like SBI, there is no brain involved in having more or less.

I think using your downvotes as you wish is fair... however, the idea that it is consequence free is a dangerous idea. Actions should have some consequence... perhaps a risk staking of SP for the action, otherwise, people can downvote and they are untouchable. There is no way to decrease their influence... now most people will not go this route, but some will... and what can you do to protect yourself? Only a lucky intervention by a large account or a protective group of friends... not everyone has that... and I don't think that approach is scalable either. 


> If a project is using its upvotes or downvotes in a way you don't like, stop associating with it, or downvote it. Or if it doesn't produce content, downvote whoever or whatever it supports. This is a fundamental part of Steem which would need to be changed after a whole lot of discussion I argue is currently unnecessary. I'd save it and potential solutions including removing all rewards and paying out in SMTs, or worse some sort of centralized authority, for another rant.

No sure that I would agree with adding an otherwise innocent third party... downvoting someone who supports the project is not the normal way we would conduct ourselves in public. I don't like criminals, but I'm not going to punish a relative who loves them.... 

I do agree that if you don't like the content, downvote it directly... 

...which leads to the other problem, if the accounts don't produce content, then they are essentially invincible... unless you want to drag in bystanders.... which I don't think is a good solution. 

> One thing I don't personally like is auto downvote or downvote trails or delegating to anyone who downvotes. Unlike upvoting, I like to be in full control of my downvotes and know exactly who I am downvoting case by case and why. Call it a bias, but I think most people here share that bias. Getting random upvotes feels nice. Getting random downvotes sucks. We don't need bad feelings. That said, I don't think most decent (1000SP+) downvotes are random.

My problem wasn't so much with the randomness... it is the fact that one particular account is proportionate and clear about their downvoting... (I don't like it, but at least it is clear and proportionate)... whilst another goes full 100% with no clear reason. 

Disproportionate downvoting from invincible accounts is not something that is going to scale well if STEEM wants to grow... especially if the only protection is a network of big accounts ready to protect an otherwise unknown and not particularly important account!

👍 abitcoinskeptic

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@abitcoinskeptic · Feb 6 '20

I guess long replies get long responses (genuinely appreciate it. Our opinions seem very similar, some points from mine require certain clarifications.

> To be honest, sometimes (often?) the non-automated votes are not really proof of brain... more like proof of reading the headline and saw the cover image!

I do agree that the POB argument gets boring and there isn't a whole lot of it. I just like using POB when comparing two unrelated actions. However, some actions require more brains and are fairer than others. It's just another measurement in the judgemental toolbox. I think you got my other point well that all services have their flaws.

SBI is better than most but can still and should still be ever improved. Something I would like that never happened were strict limits. The value of an SBI vote should never be equal more than say 25% of the post value at the time of the vote up to a maximum of 0.1 Steem or something (I just pulled these numbers off the top of my head).

Maximizing SBI payouts was much easier when votes with 'guaranteed positive ROI' *ugh* were allowed on all their accounts, daily posts, comments and whatever. I think most of us can agree good riddance. As with buying votes for self, it wasn't all bad. Most people just voted for them with honest excessive Vote power or to build a transparent alt account. Abuse was and still is stopped when informed.
However, the voting all their posts was permanently fixed. Buying for alts has not been fixed. There are solutions, but they are much more difficult to agree on so I didn't bother suggesting any.

One more thing I will add is that SBI is centralized. It's good, but it's ultimately unofficial and only permitted because the system inheritly allows it. I think an official SBI with a consensus from Dao would be a more sustainable system in the long run. However, I still maintain fixing it now is very low priority.

> Yep... but I don't agree with the tax part! The banning of abusers is a good sign and one thing that I really agree with to keep the project honest.

The reason I called it a tax is because it is removing and redistributing rewards from the reward pool. The rewards aren't earned, they are bought. I also view the Steem.dao as a tax (the witness fee is operating cost, rewards and inflation are income). It's just my way of reconciling what is going on, perhaps tax is the wrong word, but I feel sink would be inappropriate, too. Technically SBI and DAO are both unnecessary (Steem arguably operated just fine without them), unlike witnesses, inflation and rewards which are fundamental aspects of Steem. However, since technically all the SBI accounts belong to Joseph, unlike Dao which is autonomous, SBI is a little different.

> Any attempt to build a community could be classed as a way of redistributing to a closed circle and by extension a tax on any non-participants.

Yeah, I'm still working on this. I do think SBI is different. It's not as annoying as vote trading because it is open to all. However, it is directly proportioned and not earned, but instead bought (the additional share does conflict with this, my thinking isn't fully developed on it).

>  think using your downvotes as you wish is fair... however, the idea that it is consequence free is a dangerous idea. Actions should have some consequence

I don't entertain the idea that downvoting is consequence free, but I do have somewhat of a lassez-faire attitude. On the transparent blockchain we can see who downvoted us. We can seek revenge (try it sometimes, feel the darkside). Personally I think a great solution would be to considerably increase the RC cost of the 'free' downvotes. Put them at the cost of say whatever 500 SP will get you in RC. It will instantly stop the annoying nibbles and put in some value.
However, this will still benefit the bigger guys. The only other solution would be to prevent low rep accounts from doing it. If you don't have 50 rep, sorry no downvoting for you. Another solution could be to limit it to people with active comments or posts only to enable others to get revenge. For example, your maximum permitted downvotes at any time are limited to your maximum pending rewards (this will also up the revenge game to an exciting degree). I think it would work because random and stupid downvotes were rare before EIP changes.

> No sure that I would agree with adding an otherwise innocent third party

This does require a little research. Some of the downvote trolls have certain accounts they really love to support. Technically the trolls aren't acquiring their SP in a bad way, but in certain circumstances, it can work. It's definitely an ethical gray zone and I don't do it personally. However, it can and does work. North Korea, Russia and China all employ this tactic in the real world (guilt by association), oddly no one cares or calls it unfair when it is positive (wow your distant relative is famous).

>Disproportionate downvoting from invincible accounts is not something that is going to scale well if STEEM wants to grow

I completely agree. I do like some of the other suggestions to have a service (another tax) that is a counter downvote. It would scan for downvotes, employ white and black lists, then counter. We could all join for a fee. The SPS could easily fund such a thing. Pay 2% of your author rewards and 1% of your curation rewards (not sure of the fair ratio here) a month to the dao or the insurance pool as downvote insurance. Hell, I'd consider writing the proposal if someone could code it. It's much better than that ridiculous proposal that was written a couple of months ago that asked for a set of ethical standards against downvoting.

The way I would envision the insurance working is you get 1 counter for free and you are provided with info on joining. It would also add an interesting side game of downvoting people who don't join it to pressure them into joining.

This is why I love Steem, so many ideas out there and so many people to chat to it about.

👍 bengy

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10 replies

@ropaga · Feb 6 '20

So now I know those downvotes I get from time to time are because of SBI shares.

All the abuse prevention measures implemented on STEEM are based on the rewards system, so they only apply to creators (writers, witnesses, dApp founders, etc.) 

Investors are immune to that measures. They can use their STEEM POWER without any penalties. If they try to get the best ROI, they can just upvote @sbd-potato articles to get big curation rewards while the author reward will be burned, and proportionately downvote random articles to modify the pool reward even more in their favour. Bidbots may be dead but there are other methods for exploiting STEEM economy.

Your idea of adding mechanics to reduce SP is a double edge sword, because it may increase even more the abuse of big downvoters. In my opinion, the problem is that SP should not be the only factor involved in STEEM governance and rewards distribution. 1000 upvotes from different accounts should worth more than 1 upvote for an account with the same SP value. However, it must be done in a way that prevents creation of massive networks of bots accounts. Maybe a 2.0 reputation algorithm?

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@steevc · Feb 6 '20

There used to be a cost to downvoting in that it ate into your voting power, so few people downvoted. Now you get some for free and can use them if you like. Most people still don't downvote. I do because I can find plenty of people just leeching Steem for almost zero effort or engagement. I am less fussed about SBI these days. It pays me cents, but I have bought shares for lots of people. Many of them are inactive now, but I still get the votes. I am not getting flagged for using it that I know of recently, but then I stopped delegating to them. I can use my SP elsewhere to do more good and I don't care if I make less in the process.

👍 baah, bengy

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@bengy · Feb 9 '20

I have to say that even the cost to your voting power is in practice a zero cost. There is the lost opportunity for the curation rewards that would have otherwise taken place... but the resource is regenerating anyway, and for a large account, the lost opportunity is worth the damage that you can cause... 

The flagging has settled on people who sponsor shares... I guess the tactic is to choke the new shares, then move onto the recipients of the votes and then onwards from there. I'm not sure, but it does appear to be a tactical move to slowly target various holders and not the whole system at once.

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@tryskele · Feb 6 '20

Well said!!  I feel the same way. I am one of those 'nice' people that doesn't want to downvote due to 'causing negative behavior.' Anytime I have downvoted (which has been for legitmate reasons) I have been retaliated against.  I am sorry but an appics post with just a picture should not be getting a $15.00 payout.  I understand that a larger portion of upvotes are from the communities and trails that one is involved with. As much is it my right to downvote as I see fit, it is as much as someone's right to downvote on a whim. Not having a SP at stake for downvoting is a mistake. It should absolutely affect your VP. 

As you know and many don't I am one of the judges for @pifc Pay It Forward Curation Contest. I have been involved with since the day it started. It takes time and energy to create these posts as many of us know. We do this because it is one the best ways to support the community. This is where #newsteem has been wonderful. Getting a bit more for curation helps immensely and rewards you a bit more for the work.  Using SBI is by far the best option.  
> I am essentially locking up that STEEM away from the open market to provide long-term support to another account that is likely to be smaller than me.

This says it all.  Using SBI as a reward you are investing in someone. Granted it may take some time to equal, however it will end up giving much more in the long term.  I think of it as starting a savings account for someone. You put $1 in. It collects interest, you add more and get more interest. Over time that $1 will become more (I know very simplistic) That is where I fail to understand why someone would have such a vendetta against this process.  I am guessing because they didn't think of it first? They were caught abusing the system?  

Bidbots to me are the bane of Steem. Yet who am I to tell someone how to invest their money? If that is what floats your boat then have at it. The one thing I have noticed and I don't know if it is related or not, but the value of Steem has dropped significantly during this time zero tolerance of bidbots.

👍 baah, bengy

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@bengy · Feb 9 '20

>  Not having a SP at stake for downvoting is a mistake. It should absolutely affect your VP.

I was advocating a SP stake... so there would be stake risk, not just a drop in Voting Power... but you would also have to back with some actual SP/Steem. This is in keeping with other consensus protocols that employ a loss of stake for bad behaviour (bad or rogue block production). 

> The one thing I have noticed and I don't know if it is related or not, but the value of Steem has dropped significantly during this time zero tolerance of bidbots.

I'm not sure that it was only related to that... but if it was, there would be only certain types of accounts that would have been selling... and those are ones that we could do without!

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@baah · Feb 10 '20

>but the value of Steem has dropped significantly during this time zero tolerance of bidbots.

I didn't think there was any real drop.

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@creativetruth · Feb 6 '20

Yes, I agree with the assessment of the problem. Few people seem to be willing to acknowledge the problem the last hard fork presented. No repercussions against abuse of downvote power is a broken feature. Smart downvoters often create separate accounts for downvoting only, with no comments or posts of their own to interact with.

Rather than put their stake at risk, I think a more reasonable solution would be to put their downvotes at risk. There should be a mechanic to partially silence/weaken annoying downvoters temporarily by casting a counteractive downvote. Perhaps by a feature allowing people to go to the abusive profile and downvote to remove their allotment of daily downvotes. It would require an equal amount of stake to totally silence/weaken the staked downvotes of an abuser.

Not sure if this would work. It might renew the power of bidbots, undoing the "solution" of the last hardfork that beat bidbots. I will support any direction steem wants to head that better protects the legevity of active/honest/quality at authors. At the moment, I think disproportionate downvote power is one of the biggest obstacles for new users.

Remember, downvote communities are forming that downvote and reward eachother for profit when a member flags and reports a "crime". We rely on the good judgement of these members to flag fairly, and to refrain from flagging excessively for greedy profit. Eventually anyone with enough collective community power can enforce their own downvote rules without any repercussions. Diversity of thoughts on steem eventually becomes nonexistent.

👍 bengy

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@bengy · Feb 9 '20

> Rather than put their stake at risk, I think a more reasonable solution would be to put their downvotes at risk. There should be a mechanic to partially silence/weaken annoying downvoters temporarily by casting a counteractive downvote. Perhaps by a feature allowing people to go to the abusive profile and downvote to remove their allotment of daily downvotes. It would require an equal amount of stake to totally silence/weaken the staked downvotes of an abuser.

This does sound like an interesting notion. The idea that a community could band together to reduce the effects of a errant downvoter is a good idea. After all, it is the sort of banding together that shows that a greater group of people think that that sort of behaviour is more anti-social and counter to the good value of STEEM. 

However, like you said, it is a solution with probably unintended consequences... like every change to every system... 

Yes disproportionate downvoting is a real problem. Perhaps there should be something to restrict the power to accounts of the same size... that way, if people want to play downvote wars, they can... and stay in the same weight class. Perhaps a certain proportion of the downvote (depending on the relative account sizes) is free, and then the rest would have to be "funded".

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@baah · Feb 10 '20

Every thing you suggested has glaringly obvious flaws, "unintended circumstances" as you call it but squared. Think, everything gets 2, 3, or n times more complex in order to, what? Outwit someone determined enough to respond as they do, poignantly put by being a jerk? All the while, now downvoting got even more tasking, because who doesn't love to take out the trash all the time all for the far off promise of having a better community, except now the flag police will get you if you're not big enough or gosh help you if you're bigger. 

It comes down to this:


You don't think that good stake can win vs bad stake when it comes to retaining or onboaring users, and that somehow, with more rules or whatever, the good can win.

I think that the good outweighs the bad so much so that it was never a chance for bad to win, immemorial loser underdogs.

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3 replies

@steemitbloggers · Feb 7 '20

<center>Congratulations @bengy! This post has been featured in today's [Power House Creatives]( https://steemit.com/@steemitbloggers) curation post!

You can find the community announcement on Discord :) and it has also been shared on our [FB Page]( https://www.facebook.com/steemitbloggersint/) and [Twitter feed]( https://twitter.com/@steemitbloggers).

<center>![PHC-Footer-05.gif](https://cdn.steemitimages.com/DQmZMTckzqpfBShZSELLFNotjm43vJfjg79Ynz4ndB3i86a/PHC-Footer-05.gif)</center>

</center>

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@free-reign · Feb 7 '20

$0.03

I have not made one downvote.  I started getting  a downvote here, a downvote there, but when I've looked up who downvoted, it's always been a rep. 25 acct. doing it, which I figure belongs to someone with a different acct. and they're just downvoting for whatever reason.

For me, I can only think it must be that I say something they don't like.  I personally see nothing positive in promoting downvoting regardless of the talk suggesting that it's good and does good things.

I don't know, but I think the way it is now, it's just something else for abusers to latch onto just so they can be assholes.

👍 dustsweeper, bengy

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@bengy · Feb 9 '20

Those little ones don't make a difference one way or another.. they don't hurt rep and the power behind them is minute. They are just bots harassing everyone to get worked up... or to confuse the topic between those little downvotes and the really huge ones that get doled out to "influence" opinion.

However, my real gripe is about the wisdom (or lack of...) to employ proportionate tactics...

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@joanstewart · Feb 7 '20

Balanced points raised in both content and comments, down-voting may have a place for people who constantly abuse if/when used wisely, this should not be allowed to be entered into the blockchain without good reason with a comment to the perpetrator.

Ad-hoc down voting  should never be allowed this is just my opinion.

👍 bengy

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@bengy · Feb 9 '20

Yes... down voting is a really useful tool... however at the moment, only some accounts employ the vision and wisdom to employ it as a useful tool, rather than a sledgehammer for all occasions!

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@baah · Feb 10 '20

Last numbers on abusive downvoting were less than half a percentage of all downvotes. 

The mountain is an anthill..

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5 replies

@joanstewart · Feb 10 '20

I spent a couple of hours yesterday going through those I followed over the past 3 years, start clearing out dead wood. Obtaining realistic figures is never how many it is quality, sometimes downvote with comment may go a long way to assisting some to adjust their thought on how to use the platform.

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@carolinacardoza · Feb 7 '20

I don't understand much about it, but I think people like you who are interested in talking about what's going on are what we need on the platform.
 I'm going to read your poster carefully to learn.

👍 bengy

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@bengy · Feb 10 '20

It is a pity that more people aren't being involved... it is hard to speak up when you are scared!

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@hlezama · Feb 7 '20

Very controversial topic. I hope something is done in the near future to stop abuse and benefit small accounts

👍 bengy

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@bengy · Feb 10 '20

Yes... the current rules around it are sort of working due to the good intentions of a few large accounts... however, that is just luck... it isn't really a good way to scale up a network... by relying on a few "good" people to counter the bad ones!

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@derekrichardson · Feb 7 '20

I fully agree with your assessment. I don't know what the solution is, but I know I'm not abandoning my support of SBI just because some butthurt jerks wanna downvote me and my SoCal community for it. In fact it just makes me wanna support it MORE!! lol.

👍 bengy

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@bengy · Feb 10 '20 (edited)

Yes... this is really the critical point of difference between this and vote-buying and circle voting. In those other situations, the motivator is immediate ROI and profit.... so, when that is threatened... everyone jumps ship. 

For SBI, it is the gifting that is primary motivator... and so when the hurt comes, we accept it and keep giving. ROI is not the primary motivation.... still, that doesn't mean that we can't get scared and intimidated though.

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@wwwiebe · Feb 7 '20

Well, I cannot give you as good a response as abitcoinskeptic did. What I can say, however, is that requiring someone to "put skin in the game," so to speak, is a great way to de-incentivise poor public behaviour. Upvotes and Downvotes are really the same thing, anyway, just on opposite sides of the 0; they require the same resources to perform.

👍 bengy

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@bengy · Feb 10 '20

Yes... and at the moment, you do see the lack of skin in the game from both sides of the coin. There is careless upvoting and careless downvoting... both enabled by the lack of risk and cost. Consequence free actions are a moral hazard in all sectors of society...

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@birdsinparadise · Feb 7 '20

Good information @bengy.  I do find those random downvotes a nuisance, in fact they make one feel horrible when you have worked to created what you feel is meaningful content.

👍 bengy

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@baah · Feb 10 '20

Do you think it's less meaningful or do you feel your way to that? I shudder to think of your reaction, a lot of confusion and intrigue I reckon.

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@bengy · Feb 10 '20

Yes, the little ones are a nuisance... but in the end hold little power. People are going to troll... and it is best to just ignore it!

Anyway, the system is such that the status quo does have issues... but they are relatively contained due to the existence of "good" accounts that would step in if it got out of hand... however, like any governance system... hopes and wishes are not a great way to build a scalable system.

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@angel33 · Feb 7 '20

i really hate professional downvoters

👍 bengy

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@bengy · Feb 10 '20

Yes... but my problem is more with the system not being really ready for a scaling up... we see the problems, but at the moment it is sort of working okay due to the good personal intentions of a few large accounts... this is not the way to build out an autonomous network.

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@arcange · May 19 '20 (edited)

![](https://i.imgur.com/1IisxxB.png)

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@oneray · Feb 7 '20

I have never provided a negative vote to any account. Despite receiving spam comments, I don't take them into account. Despite that, I have been punished with some negative votes even though I have never bought SBI.

👍 bengy

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@bengy · Feb 10 '20

Most of the time it just easier to ignore trolls and spammers... likewise with the downvotes that don't have any power behind them. It is a touch harder to ignore the big ones though... and therein lies the problem... unless you have a big friend to "heal" the damage... then there is really no consequence and you just take the hit. 

This is not something that can scale well... as the "good" guys can't be everywhere... and it can be hard to drop into a situation and know what the complexity is behind it all... thus, there needs to be some way of making actions have consequence.

properties (22)

@logiczombie · Feb 7 '20

> The key point here was the concept of proportionate downvoting.

100% THIS.

👍 bengy, kiwisteem

properties (23)vote details (2)

@baah · Feb 10 '20

*fizzle*

👍 logiczombie

properties (23)vote details (1)

@bengy · Feb 10 '20

Yes... but that requires wisdom and the ability to think things beyond the initial irritation.

👍 logiczombie

properties (23)vote details (1)

@logiczombie · Feb 10 '20 (edited)

Or some rigorously defined, quantifiable set of logically coherent rules.

properties (22)

2 replies

@mariita52 · Feb 7 '20

Thanks for this article.
You are a voice ...

👍 bengy

properties (23)vote details (1)

@bengy · Feb 10 '20

Thank you... we all have ideas on how to try to improve a decent but flawed system... it is naive to think that it is perfect as it is!

properties (22)

@papilloncharity · Feb 7 '20

All that I can say here is this!
Who in their right mind would downvote a charity?
Charities need all of the help that they can get, be it from SBI, ABC, XYZ, or whoever.
Just doesn't make sense to me and it never will!

👍 bengy

properties (23)vote details (1)

@baah · Feb 10 '20

I don't think you know what charity means, which is right after why you think that they would downvote something they think is a charity..

properties (22)

@papilloncharity · Feb 10 '20

I have been doing charity work for 20 years now my friend and if I don't know what charity means by now, then I will never know Lol.

properties (22)

2 replies

@bengy · Feb 10 '20

The problem is that there is no consequence or risk for taking a particular action... (upvoting included...). This is not an idea that works well with groups of people... after all, if there is no consequence for a particular behaviour... what stops people from doing it... especially if there is no risk to existing stake or anything like that?

properties (22)

@papilloncharity · Feb 11 '20

Agreed with you my friend, something needs to change here methinks.
#steemit should be a site that welcomes new comers and not chase them away.
Blessings!

properties (22)

@wonderwop · Feb 8 '20

!trdo

Posted using [Partiko Android](https://partiko.app/referral/wonderwop)

properties (22)

@trendotoken · Feb 8 '20

Congratulations @wonderwop, you successfuly trended the post shared by @bengy!
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properties (22)

@trendotoken · Feb 9 '20

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properties (22)

@kazgandirgan · Mar 13 '20

!sbi status

properties (22)

@nutritree · Mar 14 '20

I love finding people to trade shares with. If you trade shares then you don't lose anything and both lock up steem in the manner as you describe. Thank you for this post.

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