I Do Not Want "Closed Borders" Because I'm Not An Immoral, Fearful Idiot by dragonanarchist

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· @dragonanarchist · (edited)
$377.34
I Do Not Want "Closed Borders" Because I'm Not An Immoral, Fearful Idiot
## <center>Get ready, this is going to be a tad less smooth and pretty, and a lot less gentle than some other stuff I write. And so should it be.</center>

# <center>Here are 7 reasons I'm not for "closed borders"</center>

<center>(a euphemistic phrase which means: using the threat of deadly force to STOP people from moving from one patch of dirt to another patch):</center>

<center>https://s21.postimg.org/eu55c0bkn/deportation.jpg</center>

### <center>~*~</center>

<center>1. I'm *not* an authoritarian collectivist who thinks an entire 3.8 million square miles of land is "mine", nor do I think an entire neighborhood block is "mine", nor do I think anything other than my body and the fruits of my labor, and my immediate property I live on are mine.</center>  

<center>2. I defend against DIRECT, real, threats of force that happen directly TO ME.</center>  
<center>3. I am not insane, so I DO NOT feel a need to defend against:</center> 
<center>thought experiments where I imagine if some humans somewhere, who might be evil, might eventually move nearby me and might harass me.</center> 

<center>4. I DO NOT think I need to defend against random individuals who I don't even know yet specifically, nor do I think I should go stand at a line in the dirt and *use force to stop every single person who "looks like" whoever I think MIGHT someday try to harm me* from moving from one patch of land to another. </center>

<center>5. I live in reality, where I wake up every day, and no one is aggressing against me, almost ever, EXCEPT where I run into the government itself, which IS the real enemy, as it impedes my movement by force, and uses force to make sure I pull over and stop what I'm doing in the middle of my day.</center> 

<center>6. In the everyday reality I live in, I can plainly *see the enemy for who they are*--**the aggressor is the one using actual force on me, and other slaves trying to move from their plantation to MINE do NOT deserve to be harassed, caged, or stopped,** simply because they like the plantation I am on better than theirs.  Nor do I believe I get to use force to stop them from moving over to 'relatively close by to me' **simply because the Massuh might 'give them' some of the 'rewards' for being 'good' that the Massuh 'allows me'.**  I understand that iniating deadly force against another victim of the state because the master on this patch of dirt might give him some of what that master stole from EVERYONE on the plantation, *is just as immoral as what the Master does.* </center>

### <center>7. My problem is the fucking masters, *not the other slaves*, and FEAR of other slaves and what they *MIGHT DO*, does not make it *moral* for me to *join my* Master *OR CHEER HIM ON* in using deadly force to stop other slaves from coming to the plantation I live on.</center>  

<center>https://s16.postimg.org/47jdxja6t/GOONSQUADBORDERPATROL.jpg</center>

<center>FUCK all "borders", fuck all WALLS around entire land masses backed by the guns of a ruling class; all humans are *born with the right to be free*.</center> 

### <center>Using FEAR of what some humans from some belief system MIGHT choose to do with their freedom as a REASON to use deadly force against A BUNCH OF STRANGERS I DO NOT KNOW, is called </center>
### <center>VIOLATING FREE WILL, and IT IS WRONG.</center>

<center>https://s9.postimg.org/wkmd9011r/crybabymeme.jpg</center>

# <center>You are NOT about freedom if you support FORCING a bunch of humans you do not know away from an entire half of a continent because a few of them *might someday hurt someone.* </center>

<center>~*~</center>

<center>**Anyone in LIFE might someday hurt you.  If it's about what some might someday do, you can justify slaughtering *everyone else but yourself*.**</center>
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vote details (226)
@sethlinson · (edited)
It's very rare thing in my life to feel threatened by individuals who aren't government agents. The "close the borders" mantra is smoke-screen fear mongering to cover up the real enemy.

P.S. You left an incomplete "/center" tag  at the end of point #5
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@dragonanarchist ·
I got it as soon as I posted, lol. Thanks though! :) 

And yes, exactly. Fear-mongering that distracts from the ENEMY.
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@karenb54 ·
If the  big guys shared more with everyone and didn't keep it all to themselfs the world would be better place
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vote details (1)
@lensessions ·
$0.04
Not voting for Trump then?
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@sethlinson · (edited)
I need a big strong man like Trump to save me.
/sarcasm
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vote details (8)
@dragonanarchist ·
I don't vote for other people to run my life or the lives of others. 

It's part of this whole "being an adult" thing, with self responsibility.
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vote details (8)
@larkenrose ·
$0.34
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vote details (16)
@matthewmencel ·
muh "Libertarian" Nationalism!!
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vote details (1)
@kyriacos ·
@dragonanarchist 

<h1>borders are silly because they are arbitarily drawn lines on a rock floating through a desolate space</h1>
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vote details (3)
@caliman5899 ·
I guess we all have our opinions, but my guess is Kate Steinle would disagree with you if she had survived the gun shot from Juan Francisco Lopez-Sanchez.  He was the undocumented felon that had been deported 5 times before that incident.   Borders might not be the best thing, but then not all people have the high morals you do. If they did, we probably wouldn't have any crime in the first place.
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@danjones ·
Is it possible for an individual from one place to harm a person in another place? Yes, it might happen, which the article addresses. 

"But then not all people have the high morals you do." I think articles like this help us all to realize where we can start developing these morals, rather than relying on the fear that the government creates in order to forfeit your rights to them for security enabling a monopoly on violence.
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@florentina · (edited)
Sure, undocumented felons rape, murder and steal...but so do our own citizens. Really, your comment makes no sense Caliman. Nearly all of North America's worst serial killers and mass shooters have been home-grown legal citizens.  Borders are pointless as proven by the constant flow of drugs and sex trafficking between our countries--drug lords succeed in evading capture or discipline partly because their crimes are supported in one way or another by people in high power.
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@kyriacos ·
@caliman5899

Believing that borders solve crime is like believing that cars are good drivers
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@trev · (edited)
$0.02
People aren't as uninvolved and unaffected as that. Immigration en masse is highly destructive. If someone breaks into your property using force to respond isn't groundless.
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vote details (5)
@matildapurse ·
... your property...
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@matthewmencel ·
except a country isn't anyone's property, it is a geographical location in which some of the property is owned by private civilians and the other parts are unowned or claimed to be owned by a gang of criminals.
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vote details (5)
@laconicflow ·
The way you anarchists talk is sophistry of the highest order. Your entire school of thought assumes humans will act a certain way if there is no government when all evidence we have, see history, suggest the opposet reaction is in fact most likely.
  Further you assume that believing in any government is a misdiagnosis of ethics, rather than an informed ethical choice.
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vote details (1)
@trev ·
The state may be immoral, but it's still the state's property no? Legitimate question. And I think more than just a claim because they have the power to possess and enforce it.
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@bitbutter · (edited)
> except a country isn't anyone's property, it is a geographical location in which some of the property is owned by private civilians and the other parts are unowned or claimed to be owned by a gang of criminals.
 
At least some of those parts claimed to be owned by the state (currently called 'public property') are the _rightful_ property of those that the state taxes. So _to the extent that the taxed would prefer a given immigrant demographic not to use their property_ state-imposed immigration restrictions with the same outcome are just - effectively partial restitution by the state towards its subjects.
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@matthewmencel ·
I wish I could upvote this 10 more times!! the "Closed Borders" camp literally make arguments that sound like arguments being made by  a communist or being made by a normal Statist saying that we need government because somebody somewhere MIGHT commit an evil act.
👍  ,
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@therealpaul ·
It's just amazing that imaginary lines can become part of 'reality' for a society that has been subjected to the right programming.
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@davet ·
i am for open borders as long as those that cross the borders cannot point more guns at me to steal my property.
👍  
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@lily-da-vine ·
I am a illegal immigrant and I support this....No Victim No Crime
👍  ,
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@specreman ·
@larkenrose There are times when you incite me to argue with myself. Thanks
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@pwn ·
Open borders only work if it goes both ways. Try taking a stroll into Mexico.  Also we must end welfare for illegals, and stop arming ISIS and their ilk. Then I'll be all for it. Til that time, asking for open borders is delusional and insane.
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@specreman · (edited)
I have not been to Mexico in 30 yrs, but recall entering south of San Diego a couple hours after dark on a Saturday night with the entering check point vacant. We cruised right in without any stop or question. Times have changed, so likely not the same today.  Yet our borders have been OPEN for decades. ISIS, Al-Qaeda, or whomever have been able to come anytime if they wish, at will, as do the drug cartels. Our government is currently importing Syrians and others by the thousands, without question, and distributing all over the land. So much for borders.
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@pwn ·
By "closed borders" he just means "borders"
Mexico will throw us in a hole if we go there illegally.
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@kingkrawdad ·
Its actually easy driving into Mexico...its coming back into the USSA that is a pain in the ass.
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@pwn ·
Going there legally, yes.  They don't accept illegal immigrants the way the US does though.
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@darrenciccone ·
Its so funny they want to build a wall, because you know they are laughing like we have 289 tunnels to get to your country :)
👍  ,
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@laconicflow ·
Nah, Trump just said we're developing "tunneling technology."
👍  
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vote details (1)
@pwn ·
Thats what ground penetrating radar and explosives are for
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@laconicflow ·
If you reject the very idea of the nation state, it follows that you reject any immigration restriction whatsoever. This is comparable to a vegetarian saying they don't eat beef.
  If, however, you do not reject the idea of the  nation state, then some type of control of immigration because the nation state is a cultural zone, a mostly voluntary association of those who identify themselves as community of shared values and interest.
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@bitbutter ·
> If you reject the very idea of the nation state, it follows that you reject any immigration restriction whatsoever. 

No, that doesn't follow. You can consistently prefer the state not to exist, _while preferring that if it does_ that it also enforces some border control rather than none (given that it violently prevents the indigenous population from excluding unwanted outsiders).
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@bitbutter · (edited)
$0.04
The disagreement between anarchists is, _while the state exists_, whether some state enforced border controls can be preferable to none at all.

I believe some such controls can be preferable. In the sense that there is likely to be a set of such controls, for every taxed population, that minimises injustice (beyond the injustices the state already creates).

Here's the idea: The indigenous population have preferences about who they wish to associate with. And who they would allow into their territory, if they were not ruled by the state. The closer the state border controls approximate the wishes of the subjugated population, the less injustice exists. By enforcing border policies that align with the preferences of the victim population, partial restitution is being given to that population. Which is better than no restitution at all.

I call it the argument from imperfect restitution. Kinsella put it like this:  
https://www.lewrockwell.com/2005/09/stephan-kinsella/a-simple-libertarian-argument/

Your post calls people who find this argument compelling 'immoral, fearful idiots' (me included) but hasn't addressed it.
👍  
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@edgeland ·
One can be an anarchist but think that while the state exists, having border control would help to improve the citizens' lives in the short term.  The problem is that having border control can also strengthen the state, and I am not willing to risk that.
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@bitbutter ·
> The problem is that having border control can also strengthen the state,

That's possible. Whether any specific border control policy for any specific state will end up strengthening  that state is an empirical question (about which reasonable people can disagree without name-calling).
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@doitvoluntarily · (edited)
can't have freedom because collectivist coercion still exists? ... seems like faulty logic. 

The time for justice/voluntary exchange is always right now. Not in the future when you think it's suitable for every party...If an anarchist is going to be consistent rather than a hypocritical statist, then they should promote voluntary exchanges at all time. Regardless of your fears.
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@bitbutter ·
> can't have freedom because collectivist coercion still exists? ... seems like faulty logic.

I haven't made that claim. So that's a straw man.

I'm saying {state + state enforced border control} is not necessarily a less libertarian outcome than {state with 'open borders' policy}.
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@bitbutter ·
> The time for justice/voluntary exchange is always right now. Not in the future when you think it's suitable for every party

The time for restitution (part of justice) is right now too of course. And state border control can be a form of restitution to the people subject to that state's predations. A consistent anarchist needs to recognise that, regardless of their fears.
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@kingkrawdad ·
I'm down w/AnCaps, but far too many of them operate under the delusion that a stateless society already exists...
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@bitbutter ·
> My problem is the fucking masters, not the other slaves, and FEAR of other slaves and what they MIGHT DO

You don't have to choose.
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@joeseismic ·
Nature, from the cellular plasma membrane to the stratosphere, is replete with regulatory borders. Without borders life would cease to exist. Nature is hierarchical too,  oftentimes times brutally so. Organisms are innately self-interested and exploitative and so it is with humans. Strength respects strength, not weakness. The weak get recycled back into the carbon pool sooner rather than later and nature will throw something else into the arena that is life.
👍  
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@egjoshslim ·
Not going to post my content here because thats rude but i wrote a post with a free copy of the anarchist cookbook thought you might be interested also i agree with everyword you say.... people are fucking deluded when it comes to other humans. Great post :)
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@proglobyte ·
From the holocaust to thought experiments, to Dawson's Creek? to ... who or what is "Massuh".  CURATORS SHOULD ACTUALLY READ WHAT THEY ARE UPVOTING! :)

Anyway .. my fellow white people can be soooo silly sometimes - a night on the wrong side of town would make them wish there were borders and walls up 'in their own city'.   But I am all for opening the floodgates .. get ready to "I DEFEND!"
👍  
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@elissahawke ·
lovely post! "Anarchists" who want "borders".....sigh
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@ema1982 ·
Oh really?  Tell that to the Americans living on the Mexican border.  I can't blame any of them for wanting closed borders.  It's a nightmare down there.

Besides, Mexicans are all statists.  You don't want any more statists voting for government freebies, now do you?  Because that's what you're going to get with open borders.
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@pwn ·
Combination of open borders and welfare for illegals will break us
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@firstwords ·
Thing is, many people have been so conditioned by cultural "othering" that they do not have any qualms with manifesting physical violence based on thought experiments and regional profiling.  The "othering" begins in most people's homes, with the family passing on inherited prejudices based on how thoroughly the parents rebelled from their parents ways, in some households parents have completely disregarded prejudices passed to them by those who raised them, but most of the time I see that these old prejudices are replaced by more modern, politically correct prejudices and "otherings"; these prejudices seem harder to eradicate than archaic ones. In families where the "othering" is traditional and follows generational conflicts and historical prejudices instead of modern ones the conditioning on the children can be easier to escape, as these older prejudices are less relevant when compared to modern children's experiences. Per my observation, the issue with borders can come down to these fundamental formative "otherings" and prejudices which become ingrained into individual's worldviews and starting points of opinion.

I propose the most effective way to remove the desire to "other" people you have never met is to abolish the convention of authority and replace it with socially expected communication and respect, with emphasis on unanimous decision making.
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@dullhawk ·
Borderists gonna [archate](http://blog.kentforliberty.com/2016/08/archate.html).
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@doitvoluntarily ·
thanks for this intelligent piece
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@terryrall · (edited)
Let's look at this 'practically'...Building a Concrete Monstrosity costing billions of dollars ISN'T going to stop illegal immigration...WHY?...because that wall ends at the Ocean where there IS no wall on both sides...people will use rafts & boats to float in!(the Coast Guard is already working over time) If you build a 35 foot tall wall...there will be somebody on the OTHER side selling 36 foot tall LADDERS!...Of course, we haven't included the tunnels as well...or somebody plastering C4 explosives & blowing a HOLE in it...Facing facts...Only Vigilance REALLY works at all...Posting the National Guard & more Immigration officers might NOT be PERFECT...but it's a d@mned sight better than putting up a billion dollar White Elephant there! Economically...if EMPLOYERS would QUIT giving JOBS to illegals then they would have no reason to be here...Illegals PICK our fruits & vegetables...service our hotels...wash our cars...& do MANY jobs that OUR spoiled population would NEVER do @ $3.00 an hour! But on the flip side Trump CLAIMS our minimum wage is TOO HIGH!...I am a Classical Anarchist...that means I believe Only an elimination of the State will work! And to me...putting a Fascist in office is NO elimination of the STATE!...Oh yes, I nearly forgot...It was a great piece&it got my vote!
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