RE: Table Top Game Reviews: Mastermind by eeks

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Viewing a response to: @lukestokes/re-eeks-re-lukestokes-table-top-game-reviews-mastermind-20170623t152425597z

· @eeks · (edited)
$118.66
I am exploring the incentive system and seeing how it breaks.  Not sure HF19 has it right.  I've been actively reading and highlighting articles that point out its weaknesses.  Maybe it will adjust and there will be an equilibrium.  

But I think one has to respond to incentives as they're designed to a certain degree.  I am not sure you can call any use of the existing system as "reward pools rape" or anything like that.  If there's a systemic problem, we have to address it at the level of the system, not pretend it doesn't exist.  Being able to upvote my comments to a high level is not the result of how I was born --> it was the result of me having earned a lot of Steem writing, curating, and commenting and also having bought with fresh money a lot of Steem, more of the latter than probably 99% of Steemians.  It's how the system works and understanding the system and how it works in general and how it works for me is literally why I have bought Steem every time I have done so.   And I'll probably show up in the transfer list as a large buyer of Steem in the last week on the list you compile --> in part because I think this HF19 is a more participatory iteration of the Steem platform and it gets us closer to great.  I'd be interested to see who has net received more Steem from exchanges in Steem's history than my account.  I bet it is few.

From my own POV, economic incentive wise, posting/commenting 50x day for $5 isn't worth my time, which is pretty dear.  That is how much I could upvote a comment or post before.  For $50+, commenting becomes time I can justify spending.  Although not totally because I have a fulltime demanding non-crypto job -- I do a lot of Steeming on my phone, and it's still pretty brutal to use.  At the current rates, I can be more more active and participatory.  Maybe I am being overpaid for my time and attention and that will be addressed in a future fork.  We'll see.  But in the mean time my participate rate has increased. 

I haven't done a post on this, but maybe I will repurpose this comment as a post.  I generally prefer to experiment and understand systems on my own rather than really get involved in the politics of a system because 1) politics is boring 2) my time/attention is scarce 3) I'm interested in getting to a better tech, more than making money 4) I have not only a full-time job, but a very broad digital asset portfolio 5) most other people don't put in the time to properly understand things and get to the appropriate level of context to make informed decisions on things.

A good example of time scarcity/time well spent/time bad spend is with the recent ICOs, even the inanity of the EOS money grab -- I see many people being stupid about it and uninformed and making bad long term decisions without adequate research or understanding.  Or with the GDAX flash crash -- people trading crypto on margin are insane and I say as much.  I could spend a fulltime job worth of time just publishing due diligence on ICOs and advice to crypto traders and it would be a waste of time I don't have to help people who won't be helped or listen.  Instead, I use soft power, soft influence, and pick my spots and make them count either behind the scenes or in front of the scenes.  Here's an example of what I wrote on [Tezos after engaging with the team there and uncovering many red flags](https://www.reddit.com/r/ethtrader/comments/6am251/what_are_everyones_thoughts_on_tezos_coinss_ico/dhhemcg/).  That is going to be the biggest ICO ever and it's a terrible deal but I put some work into it and have let it sit.  That comment is very influential.  I stick to shadows for the most part, understanding and being influential in softer, less visible ways.

Not sure if I lost the plot there or not!
πŸ‘  , , , , , , , , , ,
πŸ‘Ž  
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@lukestokes ·
Excellent comment. Thanks for your detailed reply. I hope you do make a post out of it. Clearly, you're free to stay in the shadows, but it's my hope those with the best ideas will risk more to stand up for those ideas and put themselves out there in order to help the systems they believe in and others using those systems. If only the people with poor ideas are the loudest, we may not see improvement at the breadth and speed we could otherwise.

I imagine your actions starting some very interesting discussions and, as you said, maybe some code changes in the future as well.

I hope you walk the line between being a bad actor in the system, something the community will rally against, and exploring vulnerabilities in an ethical way which (over the long term) benefits everyone.
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@eeks ·
$63.43
Rest assured, I am very active behind the scenes.  ;)
πŸ‘  
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@lukestokes ·
Now I want to know where the "scenes" are so I can peak behind them once in a while. Heheh. :)
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@pal · (edited)
$17.14
Finally someone stand up to a problem. This should be the post.
πŸ‘  
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@eeks ·
$23.92
Can you clarify what you mean?  I didn't follow.
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πŸ‘Ž  
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@pal ·
$15.86
I like the way you expressing your thoughts about problem of self voting. I thinking that  you could make good post about this. It will be interesting discussion.

P.S. Sorry, I was writing this comment from my phone and steemit.com did behave laggy at that moment. But I want to make a comment to bookmark this conversation and come back to it later.
πŸ‘  
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@l0k1 · (edited)
$0.93
very well said. I have thought it through quite a bit so far, and the two reasons it should be disallowed are:

- steem is intended to be a system for rewarding and elevating quality content, and individuals are not qualified judges of their own work, and if they really think it's fantastic they would **not** vote for themselves, confident that they will attract the votes
- the incentive to join up and flood the chain with half-assed rubbish just to hang votes on now becomes very big. such people probably consider themselves incapable or unworthy somehow, deep down, and that's why they would consider this as their only way to make rewards. bad behaviour comes from bad incentives and usually, bad feelings toward the self.
πŸ‘  
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@eeks ·
If it's not allowed, it raises the potential for people to sell their Steem because it's not worth as much to people who bought in under these conditions and understanding these mechanics.  That would drive the price of Steem down substantially as there are a lot more people earning Steem than regularly buying Steem on Polo or Bittrex.  On the margin, this could radically lower the price of Steem, which in turn would reduce the rewards for writing posts and curating for minnows and dolphins and curb their creation and activity, and so on.

That's why all these issues aren't simple -- there are tradeoffs in every direction and human beings grouped together are  [complex adaptive systems](http://www.trojanmice.com/articles/complexadaptivesystems.htm).
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@l0k1 · (edited)
Like the sun in its' effect on the earth, the biggest controller of the value of Steem is purely the subjective opinions of the markets. Price going up and down will be not caused by something as simple as a HF with a ban on self voting, most likely. But outsiders are gonna think self voting is lame, this is everyone's first response before they start to think about it, and not be so sure.

Why is it you are forgetting that voting, posting, flagging, these are NOT market phenomena, as in money? These are culture exchange, this is the correct place for democracy. The objective of Steem's design is to facilitate the reward of the production of items of culture that are most appreciated by the users. Self voting does not provide that information to the network.

And as I have mentioned elsewhere, the incentive for people with strange ideas about valid ways to earn money? They will come and spam it up so they can pin their self votes on it.

We will see soon enough once people start doing some analytics how much of a problem this is. I don't want to see Steem becoming filled up with entropy.
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@oudekaas ·
I think self voting is the reason why you would only earn 5$ a day posting right now without self voting, as I can only imagine how big a part of the curation system falls in the wrong hands by self voting right now.
Since most steem power lies with those top 20%  of steemers the biggest amount of rewards are floating around at the higher levels. Always the same people in the Trending sections.

The gap between new steem joiners fishes and whales becomes bigger and bigger with the current system.

In the end what do you think would happen if Steemit worked more balanced giving new joiners a fairer chance to get properly payed for the content. How many people will join more once Steemit is actually aiming for a balanced type of curation system not favouring the rich.

The reason now is that we have no mainstream adoption yet and the curation reward system is flawed only favouring the rich.

This is what Steemit needs and it will make your investment in Steem Power worth your while. Heck you could stop posting 50 times a day and just make some good quality posts and you might actually be rewarded that likes your content instead of rewarding your own content. 
There is not a job in the world that allows you to tip yourself?

If your reasons for investing in Steem is mainly the fact that you can upvote yourself into richness, I think Steemit's whitepaper says it is not meant for rentseekers it is meant for content curation!

Also the whitepaper mentions selvoting once but it mentions it in the same sentence as abuse. It doesn't mention why we can selfvote.

so all in all I can understand why people do it, I do it as well. It is a system of greed.

But in terms of the curation system we have to come up with something that  works for everyone.
Simple economics suggests that if you do something that is not good for everyone you shouldn't do it.
Selfvoting is therefor really something that should be stopped.

I do think by owning more voting power you should perhaps be allowed more visibility or other perks that will help you build a community quicker.

My rant is not against you by the way but the overall system, I would really like to see a change.

First of all I am going to make it my mission to figure out how much money is being burned by selfvoting!
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@personz ·
> individuals are not qualified judges of their own work

Well said yourself
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@l0k1 ·
$0.10
since i realised this, I stopped self voting. It didn't matter when my vote didn't give big rewards but now I think this is not helpful. I'm not here for the money, that is secondary to the networking. There is a lot of quality people on Steem, I'm sure you agree.
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@beanz ·
You're forgetting the incentive to avoid a copy of the blockchain popping up and pulling all disatisfied users to a new platform, collapsing the price of STEEM.
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@eeks · (edited)
No, I'm not, it's just that I understand blockchains well enough and am familiar with them well enough to know they aren't a real concern. 

There's no lasting value in doing that and any clone will have serious competitive disadvantages in network effect terms that make it pointless -- just like Expanse or ETC compared to Ethereum, or ZClassic compared to Zcash, none of which matter in general (except as pump schemes by a few sketchy insiders who created the clones.  

It's a fool's errand and easier said then done.  Golos, a professional group of Russians, made a clone of Steemit and it's alive but barely valuable.  And they were competent guys.
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@maxtill94 ·
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