RE: Let's talk about flagging and use this recent @haejin stuff as an example. by jesta

View this thread on steempeak.com

Viewing a response to: @aggroed/let-s-talk-about-flagging-and-use-this-recent-haejin-stuff-as-an-example

· @jesta · (edited)
$0.12
Initially I had really conflicted feelings about comparing downvotes to violence, but I might be coming around a bit. However, I've got a bit of a different take on it and I don't think "violence" is the right word and likely implies a more negative stance than it deserves.

Hostile? Aggressive? I'm not sure what the proper term for it is. What I can compare it to is the unadulterated PvP (Player vs Player) games of the late 90's.

Steem is a game of war, it's poker, it's a sporting event. It's a game that involves skill and aggression towards other real people. It's also a game where not everyone is going to win. 

I can compare this to Ultima Online, an online game. In the late 90's, this was my first experience with this type of social phenomenon. It was a character based role-playing game with hundreds of other real people online. The world had it's set of rules and players were allowed to do anything within those rules - including fighting, stealing and competing for resources with other players.

Sound familiar? It should, this is basically what Steem is. 

Players of Ultima Online were split by this freedom the game allowed. Players became thieves, bounty hunters, killers and really the first incarnation of "trolls" (that I had seen). While playing, what benefited you might "hurt" someone else. These people were playing by the rules of the game, much to many people's dismay.

A huge numbers of players within the game absolutely hated this, and I'm sure many people ragequit. Others really enjoyed it from both sides, both players participating in these hostile actions and those trying to defend others from it. Personally I loved it - it added a thrill, the struggle of good vs evil, and involved you more than just some dumb game where you got points. 

Ultimately, the company behind Ultima Online implemented a "solution" because of these complaints and probably to help their bottom line. They split the world in two, one peaceful (Trammel) and one aggressive (Felucca), and allowed players to travel between these two worlds. The aggressive world was always a more rewarding place - but the safe space existed for those not willing to risk what was theirs.

For those who enjoyed the game the way it was (myself included), this felt like a cop out. All of the players who couldn't handle the stress of the competitive game could now relax though - and from a business perspective they probably retained a lot more players this way. 

I'm not entirely sure if wisdom can be gained from the actions of a 90's video game - but you certainly can see the parallels. It's the same type of competitive game but that doesn't mean the same solutions would work.

**What I think everyone needs to remember though is that you're choosing to play this game.**

It's unfortunate that these rules aren't explained to you, some of the rules make no sense, and that certain factions are unfathomably powerful. But these are the rules. The rewards pool is a finite resource that anyone can compete for - against one another, using the rules that are set forth. 

Disclaimer - I've also been upset by the allocation of the rewards pool on multiple occasions for multiple reasons, and I'm sure people have been upset with it's usage regarding me. Sometimes I'm rational though :)<div class="chainbb-footer"><hr><em><small><a href="https://chainbb.com/let-s-talk-about-flagging-and-use-this-recent-haejin-stuff-as-an-example/@jesta/re-aggroed-let-s-talk-about-flagging-and-use-this-recent-haejin-stuff-as-an-example-20171225t17560802z">Originally posted</a> in the <a href="https://chainbb.com/f/undefined">/f/undefined</a> forum on <a href="https://chainbb.com">chainBB.com</a> (<a href="https://chainbb.com/chainbb/@jesta/chainbb-frequently-asked-questions-faq">learn more</a>).</small></em></div>
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vote details (4)
@aggroed ·
So, are you saying fork or tokenize a second version of steem that works the same way and doesn't allow downvotes?  I get the analogy, but I don't understand where you're going with it.
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@lextenebris ·
$0.03
Actually, I think that would be an interesting change – but I don't think there is enough demand in the marketplace (and by that I mean the social media marketplace) to split the very limited audience and have two viable communities.

But if I were going to reimagine the whole platform, changing the way downvotes work across the board, making the primary holders of vast repositories of SP explicitly active administrators, and removing the ability to upvote your own posts (at least requiring someone who wanted to do such a thing to jump through the hoop of employing a bot) would be a good start.
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@jesta ·
I wasn't really going anywhere with any suggestions, it's just how the system works and the game we are currently playing. 

If the community feels strongly that this isn't how the game should work, then it's gotta be changed. But in the mean time, these are the rules!
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@lextenebris ·
$4.75
> I can compare this to Ultima Online, an online game.

This is a very apt comparison, and I'll point out something very important.

Ultima Online is *dead.*

Sure, there is still one shard which almost has enough of a population to run most of the game events, on a good day. If you get lucky. But as a going concern? It runs on pure nostalgia, and certainly not as a growth platform.

Look at the MMO industry in its aftermath. We may have learned one thing for absolutely sure about game design: the vast bulk of people have no interest in unmitigated PVP. None. That ship has sailed.

Or rather, with more precision, people prefer their PVP to be the focus of the game and not something that gets in the way of playing the game. The core design loop which drives PVP has been better broken out into the FPS and MOBA genres, which focus the experience specifically down onto people who are interested in the very specific experience of going head-to-head with other people in a competitive environment.

Perhaps unsurprisingly, those online communities are widely observed to be some of the most toxic to both new players and those who tolerate the other people who play in order to get to play.

The MMO genre, specifically focusing on player experience and player creation, has aggressively moved away from pushing people into direct conflict unless they specifically opt in to that experience. One of the best and most successful examples of that is found in Guild Wars 2, where PVP is isolated into an entirely separate area that anyone can go to whenever they like, but that they are not forced to go to – and the PVP experience does not affect the day-to-day gameplay of the average player.

There's a reason that World of Warcraft absolutely stomped UO in the marketplace and continues to do so to this very day. From the beginning, by design, they recognized that the majority of people are not interested in the PVP experience and they allowed for non-PVP servers where accidentally running into someone who is looking to destroy your experience couldn't happen.

Is there a World of Warcraft PVP-centric community? Absolutely. How is it considered as a community? Absolutely horrifically toxic, to this very day.

(Asking "where is Mankirk's wife?" will only serve to provide me PTSD flashbacks of the Barrens.)

And all of this is in the context of a game – which I remind you is pointedly the exact opposite of the context in which Steemit in the steem blockchain is being pushed. At least in a game you know that you might be in for conflict. In a game, you at least have the chance by design of getting to experience the whole point of what you're doing. It's to play the game.

Steemit is not a game. It's never been sold as a game. It is poorly constructed as a game. Outside of a very small number of people who enjoy demonstrating mastery of systems by their ability to get bigger numbers – I don't actually believe there are a lot of people who are playing the game as you describe it.

This is supposed to be a platform through which creators can be rewarded for their work and people can be rewarded for finding good creators. That's it. That's how it's sold. That's how it's promoted.

That's at complete opposition with the idea that the experience should be driven by "competition with other people for limited resources." That's the exact opposite end of the spectrum, especially with as much as how people who support the platform like to talk up the idea of freedom and mutual community support.

Now, we both know that's bullshit. We both know that your characterization of the platform as, at the highest levels, just people griefing each other and trying to manipulate the mechanics to get the bigger numbers, regardless of anything else, is exactly what's going on.

Same people would not promote that as a positive aspect. They wouldn't support as a positive aspect. They would recognize that it is oppositional to the stated goals of the project.

Steemit is a shitty game, taken as a game, if it's to be a big, partly automated, PVP-fest where you just try to get yourself and your friends bigger numbers while decreasing the size the numbers other people get.

Steemit is poorly designed as a social media platform, in part because the above description is activity which goes on constantly – to the detriment of people who want to use it as a platform for creation, for being rewarded for doing good work, and for actually being social.

Yes, these are the rules – with all of their implications, poorly thought out interactions, and it necessarily toxic effect on what the platform is promoted as it is constantly sold for. It's not suitable for purpose as a game, it's barely suitable for purpose as a social media platform, and pretending that it's okay that's the case – well it's disingenuous on many levels.

I see that as a lot of problems. As a game designer and a ludophile, it makes my skin crawl to see a set of mechanics so at odds with what the experience is advertised to be.

Moreover, if someone is interested in the longevity of the platform, either as the backing structure for a cryptocurrency or as a social media platform in and of itself – this should not be an acceptable state of affairs.

Yes, everyone here is choosing to play this game. This game which is poorly sold, poorly documented, poorly structured, and deeply unfair across the board. They choose to stay. Many of them choose to do so right up until the time they figure out how badly designed it is – and then they leave.

Most of the numbers I've seen suggest that that happens within the first month.

No game can continue to survive with a retention rate of under 8% across a one month.. No social media platform, either, really. Not long-term.

That's a problem. That's a huge problem.

The narrative parallel between UO and Steemit is terribly apropos. If you could travel back in time 10 years and tell UO to get rid of its obsessive fixation on PVP and take steps to modernize the user experience, UO might be as continuingly popular as World of Warcraft.

But it's not. Not even close.

I'd prefer to go a different way.
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@valued-customer ·
>"Steemit is a shitty game, taken as a game, if it's to be a big, partly automated, PVP-fest where you just try to get yourself and your friends bigger numbers while decreasing the size the numbers other people get."

>"Steemit is poorly designed as a social media platform, in part because the above description is activity which goes on constantly – to the detriment of people who want to use it as a platform for creation, for being rewarded for doing good work, and for actually being social.>"

I have come to see Steemit as a rewards pool owned by 39 accounts who hold almost all Steem, and the rest of Steemit as the support mechanism. 

Including my opinions.
πŸ‘  
πŸ‘Ž  
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vote details (2)
@lextenebris ·
$0.03
I don't think there's anything wrong with that assessment. It seems to be pretty much completely accurate.

Personally, I see it as one of the few places I can use proper Markdown to write blog posts and turn out a relatively nice looking product with minimal focus on the actual format, with the additional advantages of there being a somewhat interesting funny money scorekeeping system and a very much largely untapped but growing set of people who are interested in reading about some of the things that I enjoy writing about.

And that's it. I'm not a blockchain cultist, I don't expect to be changing the world, I have no expectation of earning any kind of real money that I can actually spend on something that I want, I'm not obsessed with cryptocurrency in general or STEEM in specific, I don't take the place to seriously, I don't expect Steemit to be the next great social networking breakthrough, I don't believe that the STEEM that I'm sitting on is going to be worth hundreds of thousands of dollars one day…

I just don't believe any of those things.

If anything, my main investiture is that I *wish* it was a better game. I *wish* that it was designed to such that it would do largely what it's commonly sold as doing.

That someone can get 6% of the rewards pool by engaging in spam-y behaviors that make perfect sense for them to do? Especially in context with @paulag's [recent analysis which suggested that a good chunk of the flagging behavior on the platform, even assuming it was legitimate 100%, was only returning 6% of the reward pool back in the top?](https://steemit.com/steemit/@paulag/refilling-the-rewards-pool-for-better-or-for-worse)

Mechanically, it's just another case of ["we know what you are, now we're just haggling about the price."](https://quoteinvestigator.com/2012/03/07/haggling/)

The more I learn, the harder it becomes to take the platform seriously and the harder it becomes to take the irrational cheerleaders seriously.

I fully admit that I would like to take it more seriously than I do – but then things like this come up.

The usual reply to these concerns is, "well – it's still in beta." Which I would be happy to accept if anyone actually treated it like that was the case. Including the developers.

But that's not what we see.

And that's a shame.
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vote details (1)
@jesta ·
$0.08
I didn't mean to suggest that this is the way Steem should be - I'm merely pointing out that this is how it exists as of today.  The sheer amount of drama sucks and it's driving people away from the platform, just like the unadulterated PVP of old did in the first generation of MMOs. I tried to make that clear, that even despite my enjoyment of the that thrill, it wasn't what was best for the game and changes to the system were required. 

> Yes, everyone here is choosing to play this game. This game which is poorly sold, poorly documented, poorly structured, and deeply unfair across the board. They choose to stay. Many of them choose to do so right up until the time they figure out how badly designed it is – and then they leave.

Being as deeply involved in Steem as I am, I've been irrationally upset by all of these issues on multiple occasions. Nothing substantial has changed over the last year within Steem in any regards. We've been continuously playing this same game of whack-a-mole and the attrition is high. People are getting griefed and we have no substantial ways to protect against it, because of how the rules of the blockchain are written. 

What's helped me though is at least realizing what the current system is, accepting that, and then moving on to look for ways to improve it. The community isn't going to change it's behavior for the better, the system itself needs to change it's rules and enforce a specific behavior. But in the mean time, this is what we've got.
πŸ‘  , ,
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vote details (3)
@lextenebris ·
$0.03
> I didn't mean to suggest that this is the way Steem should be - I'm merely pointing out that this is how it exists as of today. The sheer amount of drama sucks and it's driving people away from the platform, just like the unadulterated PVP of old did in the first generation of MMOs. I tried to make that clear, that even despite my enjoyment of the that thrill, it wasn't what was best for the game and changes to the system were required.

Groovy, then we're on the same page. It was the fact that you are not in favor of that as a desirable state of affairs that was perhaps not communicated as clearly as you would have liked that was throwing me off. My fault, I'll own that.

(Though it does bring to mind a gedanken in which some sort of "profit earning" blockchain construct exists in the deliberately competitively FPS mode, where every verb interacting with the nouns in the system is inherently aggressive or clannish… But then I think I've just reinvented Bitcoin, and that's no good.)

> What's helped me though is at least realizing what the current system is, accepting that, and then moving on to look for ways to improve it. The community isn't going to change it's behavior for the better, the system itself needs to change it's rules and enforce a specific behavior. But in the mean time, this is what we've got.

Like the good [Bartle Explorer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartle_taxonomy_of_player_types) I am, I've just been searching the platform, walking to and fro in the Earth, seeking whom I may devour. The platform does not make it easy. The one thing that you want to be, without question, easy to do in a social media network is discovery of content. It comes very close to "you had one job." Steemit really fails at that job. Badly, really.

I discover most of the new content that I'm interested in on Steemit through a carefully minimized set of keyword matches running on @GINAbot. This is the base, most simple, most trivial operation that one can expect in a social media platform – and it's having to be done off-platform with the delivery of those notifications being done off-platform.

Why?

It's easy (in a relative sense) to come up with ideas which would improve the mechanics of this system to better reflect what we are told the intentions for the system are. I'm just not sure that what we're being told is actually what is being intended; there is a significant trust gap and I have no idea how to bridge that.
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@geekorner ·
$0.11
First of all, great comment, especially from someone interested in designing and analyzing systems, specifically in games.

That said, I'd like to note that all social interactions, and all institutions are essentially, well, *games*.

I'm new to Steemit, but I've discussed it with some friends, and the problem with scalability is huge. How can this system properly reward all creators when said creators are forced to compete with one another? When the system actually works worse in its stated goal the more successful it is in terms of audience?

I think the scalability of rewards is definitely something that will have to be dealt with, or even the people who stick around and "succeed" right now will have to go away.

There's one more thing games teach us. If you perform an activity for no compensation, you'll keep on doing it quite often. But if you get compensated, and then the compensations go away, you'll likely stop.

And as Steemit grows, more and more people will get less and less rewards, even if the rewards scale at an equal rate to the userbase.

The way trending is borked is also part of it.

I'm not hoping for much, so I'm using this to help incentivize me to write, because I love writing, and to get rewarded for the effort I've been putting into my writing for years now. It'll last as long as it does. And maybe, just maybe, changes will be made.
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@lextenebris ·
> That said, I'd like to note that all social interactions, and all institutions are essentially, well, games.

We of [House Tytalus](http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/House_Tytalus) would like to formally applaud your enlightenment and extend an invitation to become a Consors forthwith. ;)

> When the system actually works worse in its stated goal the more successful it is in terms of audience?

This is exactly one of the big issues that I have been concerned with but haven't had the right approach to combat.

You are correct – Steemit and the STEEM blockchain represent a system which is self-defeating. If the idea is to reward creators in a very direct way, and incentivize investors to come to the platform and put their money into it, which then increases the amount which creators are incentivized themselves – well, it is the very definition of a pyramid scheme, right?

The amount of money injected into the system via inflation every week is fixed. That pool is not getting bigger. As far as I know, there is no plan for that pool to get bigger because it would require an increase in inflation.

As such, there is no way to allocate more value to an individual sector or creator – no matter what percentage of the population is interested in doing so. In fact, looking at the numbers, unless it's one of the top 40 people holding more than 90% of STEEM on the platform – nothing that we can do will make a significant dent in how those resources are allocated.

The #BI group looked at some stuff recently trying to figure out how much of the reward pool was redirected back into the top by the activities of Bernie and @steemcleaners, and the rough estimate was – assuming all of those acts were virtuous – it ended up pouring 6% of the value in a single week back into the top of the reward pool.

6%. All of the work, all of the effort, all of the VP which could've been going to upvote content which people actually wanted and would like – ended up making a difference to the total reward pool of 6%.

For people who aren't in the upper echelon, that's an extra few cents – maybe. For real minnows and plankton, which I probably still count as, it's not even that. It's not quite rounding error.

Between the issues with scalability and the questions about how much influence you can actually have over the experience at a personal level – Steemit has some real problems.

Like you, I'm basically using it to help incentivize myself to write longer pieces and get that work in front of people. I could be doing it anywhere, including Medium, where they have a reward system which actually pays in a real fiat currency I could buy a hamburger with. For the moment, I'm doing it here – because this is more amusing.

But I, like all the other creators on this platform, could be gone tomorrow and lose effectively nothing.

Maybe changes will be made. That would be nice to see.

Breath holding is not advised.
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@valued-customer ·
>"What I think everyone needs to remember though is that you're choosing to play this game."

This is true.

However, I am not here to play the game of Steem.  I am here to mine criticism, and this game is causing the ferment of opinion on Steemit to skew towards pandering, and if it gets too out of line, is censored.

I am unaware of another platform that potentiates the intellectual interaction here, and so I stay.

I am uninterested in my personal rewards.  Oddly, this has largely prevented me from being flagged.  

Maybe today that will change.

XD

Thanks!

Merry Christmas!
πŸ‘  , ,
πŸ‘Ž  
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vote details (4)
@jesta ·
$0.02
Merry Christmas to you too! 

Those are just the rules we have at the moment - they can be campaigned to change, but are what we've got :)
πŸ‘  
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vote details (1)
@stellabelle ·
$3.00
I am upset daily by what I see making giant rewards, but with regard to you, I never am. There are very few people who make it to my "list", but you are at the top. I love the tools you've made for us, and my life would suck without Vessel, so basically, you deserve everything you are getting.
I have similar feelings about the recognition of this being a game, and in fact, I've been playing my own version of this game from day 1. I was playing a different game from most of the early players.....As the early ones were all trying ot figure out how to "game the system," I was busy trying to figure out how to best build my empire. I had a vision of what I wanted to do in life from 10 years ago, but i never had the proper tool set. Whereas most people only want riches, and lambos, my game involved something a bit different.....I hope that someday in the next few years it will become very obvious why I have been playing this game. It's best not to reveal plans, only results. 
For me, this place is a mental petri dish. It reflects what's inside of you. If it is war you want, you will get that. For me, I always saw this place as an evolved reflection of the what the indigenous people of the world called a "gift economy". That what I always saw in here, and what I will continue to see. Planet Steem is going to physically morph into various hallucinations by various people, even if it materializes in other dimensions, or blockchains.
πŸ‘  ,
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vote details (2)
@jesta ·
> For me, this place is a mental petri dish. It reflects what's inside of you. If it is war you want, you will get that. 

Haha, it totally is and so true. Wise words, it totally is what you make it.
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@lextenebris ·
$1.93
I'm pretty sure I did not sign up to find myself in the middle of a war zone, with petty warlords leaving a trail of down voted bodies across the landscape, tearing down the edifices that others have erected because they could.

I'm pretty sure I didn't make this place like that.

I'm also pretty sure that I didn't make it a place where spamming is trivial and profitable, marginal content was rewarded as much as that which takes significant effort, and someone else is always looking over your shoulder trying to decide if you have "earned too much" on something.

I am almost dead certain that I didn't make it that way.

When I look for wisdom, I usually like it to reflect the actual experience. If it doesn't – it's just words. Maybe it's words that make you feel good, but they don't have any meaning.

This place is a petri dish, I'll give you that, but the cultures within don't reflect the desires of most of those who are standing around the edge. The cultures are from the most virulent and active infections that got to the dish first.

Maybe you could make penicillin from them, but if you're looking for something valuable, you're far better off looking around the edges of the dish for almost overlooked samples and ignore the mess in the middle.
πŸ‘  ,
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vote details (2)