Who is Best Suited to Manage a Community and Make Decisions? by krnel

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· @krnel · (edited)
$16.51
Who is Best Suited to Manage a Community and Make Decisions?
I will be focusing on Steemit.com as the main platform for the Steem blockchain for simplicity, since it was the first and is still the largest point-of-contact for interaction in the blockchain. Looking at Steemit.com, the site itself and what happens there as an imaginary "company", will be used to try to understand how Steemit.com work as an organization and community.

This is the current idea about how Steemit functions is: "The platform of Steemit.com/Steem is like a business. I have a stake, just like a share in a company. That means I have a vote for each share, and if I have more votes than you it means I have more power because I have more shares. That's the way Steem/Steemit was designed, that's the 'law', deal with it."

Does a company create more stock every day and give it out people who create the content, those who create the product or service that is put out through the company for others to consume? No, not usually with shares, but they do pay people to work to produce those products or services. It's just not with shares usually. Steemit.com pays for work done with shares. The workers who create the content products are the "employees", and the employee workers evaluate each other (curating). For Steemit.com, consider all users who contribute posts or comments as providing work. They are the community that create the content and give it life. They are the people who actually use the site, not simply viewers or bot-curators.

Currently, the employees don't have  much power to allocate payment for content products created to give value to Steemit.com. The power to decide who gets most of the pay/rewards for work done, is determined by a concentrated of power in the hands of a group of shareholders. Some of those shareholders think they can do whatever they want because "they have the power" through shares. They only have the concentration of power because that was the original idea that Steemit Inc used to create Steemit.com/Steem. But has this idea panned out? Is the concentration of power to make decisions and decide how things work, really working?

---
# What is Steemit.com Trying To Do?

Steemit.com isn't like a regular "company" where you have to buy-in to get your shares. Steemit gives out shares every day to people who produce products and services to be hosted on Steemit.com in order to give it visibility and reputation that would reflect the products or services being offered, freely in this case.  The more that a content or product is created that can't be found elsewhere and has lasting value into the future to attract people to get it on Steemit.com, the more the visibility and reputation grows for people to be attracted to Steemit.com for them to get there, as they can't get it elsewhere. Those who create product content of lasting value into the future give the most opportunity for future influx of viewers and consumers of the content products that are available on Steemit.com (or elsewhere through the blockchain, yes, but as I said I'm sticking to Steemit.com for simplicity in explaining things).

Steemit.com isn't only a company that pays people with shares for producing work on Steemit.com that it uses to gain visibility and reputation. Steemit.com is a community of people that do work and create the content or products and services for that visibility and reputation. 

The community is what builds Steemit.com and the blockchain. The community does all the work to build that visibility and reputation to reflect Steemit.com. The developers are the ones that build functionality and also develop more functionality and features in the blockchain that is attractive outside of Steemit.com. If there was only the developers working on the blockchain alone, there would be no Steemit.com and no community of people working to create content to attract more people to that community. The community who work to create content for others to want to access over long periods of time, is what builds the visibility and reputation for Steemit.com, and that reflects as a form of promoting the value of the STEEM token and the blockchain technology itself. The face of Steemit Inc and the Steem blockchain is represented through the visibility of Steemit.com and the content work produced on it.

If the stakeholders want to have all the power to control how things go, and think they cant do whatever they want because they "have the power", then they will alienate the importance and empowerment of the  individuals who make up the community and the decision making capacity they have to affect where the direction the community goes. Ignoring the community that creates the products that gives value to the Steemit.com platform will result in Steemit.com failing, not succeeding. Individuals aren't obliged to stay on a platform that is mismanaged by the concentration of power from stakeholders, and they will leave. Why waste time on something that isn't working right? So they leave for greener pastures and more fairness in how things work. The concentration of power is a problem. The real world isn't so easy to simply pick up and leave, as people are coerced into compliance in the chain of obedience of concentrated power and centralized authority that the government wields.

Those who use the site, and those who create the value therein, are the ones who make everything turn. Without the content creators, there is no new content on Steemit.com that has the potential to attract people from the outside. Relying on an flawed model of concentrating power in the hands of stakeholders, does not work when you're trying to establish a community and a desire to stay through being empowered. If you are alienated from the decision process, you are disenfranchising and disillusioned from the platform that isn't really being community driven in how things function. The stakeholders make the choices because they have all the power, and they want to keep it that way. This will not work when people are told about "come for the rewards, stay for the community" if the community of individuals aren't self-determined and self-governing the collective community interdependently. The community isn't empowered when all or a select few of the major stakeholders are running the show.

---
# Management

Steemit.com has a community, with stakeholders and witnesses, and the developers in the Steemit Inc company are developing the site and blockchain.

The management of the way things are done on Steemit.com is decided not by the company Steemit Inc alone. The way things go isn't like a regular company where the bosses make changes and sometimes care to get feedback from employees to change things. If things don't go well, the employees can quit. Some people have left steemit for various reasons, and this can be looked at as an employee quitting.

The Steemit experiment thought the stakeholders could be managers to make decisions that have the majority of concentrated power over the community and decide how things would work in the community and platform of Steemit.com. This has been a failure that some people can recognize.

The Steemit.com community, as a metaphor to a company that pays out shares to people who work to create content products, should be run by employees who do work, not by shareholders. That's not how a regular company is managed. The shareholders don't make the decisions in a company, the management workers do. Workers themselves, the overall employees, can manage an organization as well, just like a cooperative does. 

The stakeholders don't run the company, nor should they run the community of workers that create the products. Why would shareholders who have the most power be the ones that run the way the Steemit.com community operates and how things function within it? Shareholders can have their shares apply in various ways, but for the decisions to determine how things operate in the organization and community, that's supposed to be based on competency, not simply on having the concentration of power to decide how things work. Just because corporations work with a flawed model, doesn't mean the community of Steemit.com neesd to work the same way. 

Shareholders can decide to sell off a company because all they care about is the $$$ money they will get. Shareholders, new or old, can break up a company or organization and sell it off in parts to make money money. There is no care of concern for the community of individuals that make up the company and work to create it's success. Putting someone's personal self-interest to  make money for themselves as they see fit, above the interests of others, like the workers in the organization, is not right, despite it being accepted in society. Money for one or a few who have the power, trumps what is right for everyone involved. People end up losing in the long term because of this lack of inclusion of everyone. If people feel alienated and have no power to affect decisions or change within an organization, that leads to a chain of obedience for those who stick around to do the work and get paid. It doesn't promote the empowerment of self-governance or self-determination.

In a society as community, the community derives consensus on what to do. Steemit.com has a community that uses and creates the product and services as the company that's offering it for free for the internet to consume. The creations in the community are the products that give visibility and reputation for value, in the short or long term.

*Do shareholders determine what workers productions should get paid more than other productions in the community of the "company"? Does one or a few shareholders with a concentration of power decide that for themselves? Or does the actual community that evaluates each other decide what products they value the most?*

It not up to one or a few power players who have the concentration of power to determine how the community operates. That's up to the community itself. At least, that's the way to empower people to want to be involved. Otherwise, many just don't bother even getting involved because they realize they have no power anyways... it's all concentrated in the hands of a few. This disempowerment doesn't promote individual intrinsic motivations to help the community or organization succeed. People need to have the power to affect change, or they fall into learned helplessness and just accept things the way they are. Decentralization of power in to the hands of the people who make up the organization or community is required for them to determine their own fate together.

---
# The Failure of Concentrated Shareholder Management

From [The Peter Principle, Ortega y Gasset and the Self-Determination of Steemit](https://steemit.com/steemit/@fidelity/the-peter-principle-ortega-y-gasset-and-the-self-determination-of-steemit)

> Turning to steemit.com, the Power Struggle has become an unhealthy and messy display being played out upon the platform.

> The ‘whales’ determine the rewards structure and the whales have to look at their results. The results include:

> 1. The price of steem.
>2. The number of subscriptions.
>3. The rate of retention.
>4. The rate of decentralisation.
>5. The ‘feel-good factor’.
>6. Steem has gone from a high Market Capitalisation of $380million down to $26million, losing 93% between July 2016 and February 2017.
>7. The number of subscriptions is stated as being over 130,000. The system itself only follows 61,873 and there are about 3-6,000 active accounts, of which it cannot be known how many are multiple accounts in one owner’s hands and how many are in fact robots set up to profit via systematic algorithmic processes.
>8. Retention figures are hard to know as there are so many accounts which appear bogus. A lot of actual ‘people’ have left because of how the rewards structure treated them.
>9. The rate of decentralisation is zero.
>10. Frustration and anger is at all levels of the structure.

> The first steem was at basement prices. Mining brought massive instant rewards.

> The purchase and mining of steem has put these people known as ‘whales’ into a position of management.

> The Peter’s Principle would suggest that they are in a position which displays their incompetence.

> Ortega y Gasset would suggest that they are unwilling or incapable of seeing that: “We accept fate and within it we choose one destiny”.

---
# Self-Determined & Self-Governed Decentralized Community Management

There needs to be a more rational way for the Steemit.com community to operate that isn't based on a concentration of shareholders. A good place to start would be to do it based on how it already works in reality. 

The employees in a cooperative community, a cooperative enterprise or organization, are the ones that manage themselves. This is a self-governing and self-determined optimization of individual empowerment to guide the collective community direction. They are equally represented in don't have representatives to represent them incorrectly. Everyone gets information and shares it in order to arrive on the same page of understanding to move forward with the betterment of the community in mind. There is no concentration of wealth. No amount of wealth gives one person more power than the other.

If steemit.com wants to be a bastion of decentralized self-governance and self-determination for the individual, then it really needs to be the community on the ground that the sides where things are going because they are the ones that make up the platform and drive its success through the work they do to create content for the platform. The blockchain or code is one part, and not the determining part of how things operate in a community. The community and the people within it are the ones who can decide how the code will change. The community of employees that work to create the content product are the cooperative of workers that can properly self govern in a decentralized manner as a community to make decisions.

Steemit Inc. makes proposals, witnesses approve them or not, but the community also has a say if the proposals go forward as well, or are reversed as per the effect that these changes have on the platform that the community lives within. The community is the determinant factor for how things will stay or change. If the community is ignored and alienated about their concerns, some will leave and abandon the platform that ignores the issues they raise, and leaves them feeling disenfranchised and disillusioned through being disempowered in the decision making process that can effectuate change.

The community can also propose proposals for change as the workers in the cooperative community. If the workers understand an issue then they can succeed in changing that issue. If community members do not want to get involved, then they depend on others to make decisions for them instead of being active in developing the community. If the overall community believes everything up to witnesses, steemit Inc. or the concentration of power in the hands of the stakeholders, then the community is not in charge of the community is being directed by a select group that decides what happens for everybody.

The concentration of power doesn't work in a community that want something other than what the few power players decide to do simply because they have the power or wealth to do it. Real communities are cooperative. The best communities are self-determined, self-governed and decentralized in power. 

A community that follows the chain of obedience of a centralized power structure isn't embodying the "spirit" of what a community can be. It's only a shadow or shall of what it can be.

This is why a cooperative based decision process for how the steemit.com platform and site functions, is optimal in required to propagate greater inclusion of the people, workers, employees that work to create the content product on the platform for others in the world to come and get. That is, if the goal is for self-governance, self-determination and decentralization of power in the community and the societal decision process, and not just the blockchain or staying in the chain of obedience that the code = law.

We are all decentralized individuals who cooperate in the community. At least, that's the optimal ideal functionality of a community which humanity has more or less failed or succeeded in accomplishing at various times and places. It's a long struggle to get consciousness to understand how to maximize individual empowerment within a cooperative community focus.

It's not just about our own self-interest, our own wealth, and trying to maintain and grow our wealth as an individual. Focusing primarily on the money and trying not to lose what we have, is how other more important things are ignored. When we are trying to figure out what the best thing to do is by basing it on money, and not on what is the best thing to do, then we aren't going to be doing the best thing because our focus is on money.

A centralized power as government, or stakeholders, to have more power to do things that others can't, creates an imbalance of power in the decision-making process and also creates injustices in the social cooperative model.

Some people think decentralization is in opposition to what a community is. Again, this is a confusion due to not understanding what these two words mean. Learn the true meaning of words to empower your ability to understand reality. Words reflect reality. THe limits of your understanding words limits your understanding of reality.

A real, true, optimal community, is decentralized! They are not opposites. Using the current model of how society or communities work, is not the optimal understanding of how communities can function taking more information into consideration, such as the importance of respecting individual empowerment and autonomy.

---
# De-Centralized Common-Unity

[Prefix de-](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/de-)
Meaning reversal, undoing or removing. 

[de-](http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=de-)
Latin usually meaning "down, off, away, from among, down from,"

[centralize](http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=centralize)
"to bring to a center;"

[decentralize](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/decentralize)
1. To cause something to change from being concentrated at one point to being distributed across a number of points.
2. To reduce the authority of a governing body by distributing that authority among several bodies.

De-centralize, is to go away, down or off from a center that would have the concentration of control or power. One database haw the control of information and can manipulate and change that data, but a distributed database like a blockchain prevents this and maintains information integrity. Instead of one person, or one group, having the concentration of power to decide what happens for everyone else, decentralization distributes the power and authority, ideally, among everyone. This is how to empower the individual in self-governance and self-determination to control their own lives.

A community, is a common-unity. If all you care about is your individual self-interest, and are trying to shape the community into your own self-interest because "you have the power", then you're not working as a common-unity. There won't be unity when you use your wealth and power to centralize decisions around yourself alone, while ignoring the common-unity of individuals in the community that doesn't like what you're doing. A community is truly a community when people share a common understanding to form that common-unity based on being on the same page of understanding.

Individuals in a community group together as interdependent units to form a larger whole. If one individual thinks they can decide what does or doesn't happen in a community and acts in that thinking with their power to do whatever they want, this person is not working as part of the common-unity. 

Decentralization isn't about an individual being separate from the whole. It's about empowering the individual to be a part of the whole and integrated with how the whole functions. No one is an island to use their power to do whatever they want or "think" is "good". There are others that are affected. This is part of understanding morality. The common-unity is achieved when all individuals are represented equally. There isn't a real "community" when there is a concentration of power to one individual or a group that has power over the rest of the individuals. This is not decentralization, but centralization of power. Individuals can have wealth, but their wealth doesn't determine what is right or wrong in a community or give them more right to control the lives of others.

In a real common-unity community, individuals can't simply use their wealth to go around and control how things work in the community. It's not up to that one person how things in a community really work, it's up to the community to decide. Individuals can work towards common-unity by decentralizing the concentration of power that prevents the community from being able to make decisions fairly and equally. The amount of wealth, money or shares does not determine common-unity, nor what should happen in a community simply based on the whims of one or a few individuals who have the concentration of wealth that they think gives them power over others.

When the power of deciding what goes on in a "community" is centralized, there is less of a common-unity and less of a real true community to do things together based on common understanding. Decentralization of social power is required to empower the individual and truly achieve common-unity.

The ones that are best suited to manage and make decisions in and for a community, are the actual individuals in the community to form common-unity, not a concentration of power in the hands of one, or a few. The wealth someone has should have no impact on the rightness or wrongness of a decision that impacts of affects the community. 

**A choice needs to be made: repeat the same mistakes that regular society has constructed, or create something better.**

It's up to us -- the individuals in the community -- to decide if we want to be part of either, and work towards creating it. Without the community that makes up the driving force behind Steemit.com, there is no Steemit.com. We have the power to create change if we want to. We can make things better if we want to. Learning about the issues and understand the problems is required before we can apply a solution.

***Decentralization towards common-unity is the solution as I see it. What about you?***

<img src="https://steemitimages.com/0x0/https://steemitimages.com/0x0/http://i.imgur.com/Qo7WwjA.jpg" />

----
#### Thank you for your time and attention! I appreciate the knowledge reaching more people. Take care. Peace.

---
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<sub>*Looking to contact me?* Find me on [Discord](https://discord.gg/bJCnv5j) or send me a message on [SteemKURE](https://steemkure.com/contact).</sub>

---
<sub>**Please also consider supporting me as a [Steem Witness](https://steemit.com/witness-category/@krnel/krnel-s-declaration-of-witness) by voting for me at the [bottom of the Witness page](https://steemit.com/~witnesses); or just click on the upvote button if I am in the top 50:**
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---
2017-03-01, 12:01pm
👍  , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , and 457 others
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@son-of-satire ·
Morgan Freeman.
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@kingscrown ·
$0.07
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@mallorcaman ·
Resteemed! Thanks for that a very good way to sum up some of the hard truths about Steemit.
👍  
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@wingz · (edited)
@krnel 

You're missing one important question..

Where does the money come from?
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@filotasriza3 ·
how much time it took you to write this? :P
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@berniesanders ·
Way more than people will spend reading it.  Boom!
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@filotasriza3 ·
i couldn't  agree more but please bernie i got a girlfriend stop hitting on me
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@stevescoins ·
nice followup to @fidelity's post
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@inertia · (edited)
$0.07
First, I have a few questions.

Am I correct in concluding you are frustrated with `one-share-one-vote`?

I’m curious about the use of the word `disenfranchising`.  If we are operating under `one-share-one-vote`, where is the marginalization under `one-share-one-vote`?

> Why waste time on something that isn't working right? So they leave for greener pastures and more fairness in how things work.

What would that be?

---

STEEM governance is stake-based.  If Satoshi Nakamoto wanted to use his Bitcoin stake to force the community to implement [BIP62](https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0062.mediawiki), he’s out of luck.  Under Bitcoin governance, it’s up to the miners to decide.

But if Steemit, Inc. wanted to force the community to implement a hardfork (to fix an exploit, for example), they could, though they usually choose not to, preferring cryptographically verifiable consensus.

Under the Bitcoin governance, the people with the most stake are impotent unless they also have the hashing power.  Under DPOS (delegated proof of stake), actual progress can be made to improve the platform.

DPOS can even allow for `line-item-veto` on certain controversial changes, as we’ve seen.  It’ flexible.  It really is the best governance model.  It may create frustration, but it’s nowhere near a failure in any way.
👍  , , , , , ,
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vote details (7)
@krnel ·
> the state of being deprived of a right or privilege, especially the right to vote.
> "the widespread disenfranchisement of minority voters"

Power and quantity of shares means nothing. 1 share = 1 vote gives all the power to those who have the most shares.

Steemit.com is not just a company/corporation of Steemit Inc, or a blockchain Steem. Steemit.com is a community that makes it work or fails. 

Do you want to run it like a corporate centralization of power, or a community? 

If you want things to stay centralized in the power and decision making of those who have the most shares ok, but that won't succeed for a decentralized vision of society that I see Dan having the vision to make in the long term.

Anything but the place where things aren't right = greener pastures. All anyone has to do is remove themselves from an undesirable situation where they don't need to deal with it, and that becomes a "greener" pasture for them. There doesn't need to be another option as you seem to be implying.

Code was created for a certain effect. If the effect desired is not manifestable given current code, it can be changed.

Shareholders and the wealthy don't decide how things function within an organization and daily operations. That's what employees know how to do, and are in charge of making work. The corporate model is not a community model. A choice has to be made of which success you want. Disenfranchise the community by keeping them disempowered in hope the shareholders know what they are doing and can manage the community (not working), or actually give the community the self-determination to organize how the community works and create something themselves that will be built on a solid foundation of common-unity decentralized empowerment to each individual and not centralized concentration of power to rule over and decide for everyone.

Make the community aspect work, and then you get success and the money comes in. If the workers are disempowered then they community isn't intrinsically motivated to thrive for success of the overall organization. Everyone is just in it for themselves. Get out of the corporate mindset.
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@inertia ·
![](http://24.media.tumblr.com/1b100d15ef5fcdc0a54aaeae617e7086/tumblr_mo1xxchvI11sq6jnlo1_250.gif)![](http://24.media.tumblr.com/1b100d15ef5fcdc0a54aaeae617e7086/tumblr_mo1xxchvI11sq6jnlo1_250.gif)![](http://24.media.tumblr.com/1b100d15ef5fcdc0a54aaeae617e7086/tumblr_mo1xxchvI11sq6jnlo1_250.gif)![](http://24.media.tumblr.com/1b100d15ef5fcdc0a54aaeae617e7086/tumblr_mo1xxchvI11sq6jnlo1_250.gif)![](http://24.media.tumblr.com/1b100d15ef5fcdc0a54aaeae617e7086/tumblr_mo1xxchvI11sq6jnlo1_250.gif)![](http://24.media.tumblr.com/1b100d15ef5fcdc0a54aaeae617e7086/tumblr_mo1xxchvI11sq6jnlo1_250.gif)
👍  , ,
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vote details (3)
@bryan-imhoff ·
I agree it's far too early to label the current model a failure. It seems to me that stake is continuing to be distributed and while it will take a long time to achieve more balance, we need to work more toward achieving that end within the current framework rather than constantly changing the rules.
When I look at the accounts of a handful of the most controversial whales, I see them making very little rewards proportional to their current stake. They do not take exorbitant sums from the author and curation rewards pools and some are actively powering down. As the rewards pool is distributed each day, their stake is getting more and more diluted, lessening their influence on the platform.
Dolphins and minnows who are active writers and curators are consistently outperforming their current level of stake, thereby growing their influence on the platform. 
What is slowing this process is that most smaller participants are not using what influence they do have to good effect. I see many accounts doing very little curating, thus abdicating that power and slowing the distribution of Steem across the user base. Perhaps Steemit needs to look to integrate an autovoting system directly into the site and educate new users on it. It could even simplify such tasks as delegating a certain percentage of voting rights each day to a particular tag category so that users can simplify the task of supporting the communities they are interested in. Trails and delegating votes to manual curators do the same essential task, but how many minnows use these? Simple, straightforward, integrated solutions for exercising voting stake would be great. The witness voting system is already a model. Applied to curation voting rights, with a clear interface and documentation, we could really start seeing the platform properly rewarding the will of the stakeholders each day, organically distributing Steem into the future.
I've also long encouraged showing the "minnow math" and integrating smaller payouts into the UI. Busy does calculate out to a third decimal place and while it's not much, it is more encouraging to see a vote move a post by a couple tenths of a cent rather than not see it move at all. New user retention and activity may be greatly improved by such a simple change, as people can literally see that their actions are not worthless.
User participation is first and foremost. I'm always 100% Steem power, and voting. That's the basis of the grassroots movement we need to distribute the stake to a wider world.
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@timcliff ·
$0.06
I think pretty much everyone agrees that the current concentration of power is not workable for Steemit to go mainstream. The million dollar question though is how to actually address it in a way that is fair to the original stakeholders (who earned their share based on the defined rules of the blockchain) and also cannot be exploited by "bad whales" just dividing their stake into lots of smaller accounts. Are there any workable proposals on the table that can address this?
👍  , ,
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vote details (3)
@seablue ·
Moving to another blockchain is probably the best solution for those not yet fully invested in the STEEM blockchain.  Then the current stakeholders can have their share.  A full share of nothing potentially.

Perhaps they might consider coming to a more affordable compromise if they consider that, not unlikely, scenario?

They may claim it is not probable, but I think that most outside investors would agree with the reality that there is no purpose in filling the pockets of those who have taken the lions share of the pie for themselves in the mining phase at the beginning.  **Especially when, in doing so, they empower those same early speculators, to have authority over the direction of the platform, and ultimately control the destiny of their investment.**

The current whales have demonstrated considerable ineptitude in their conduct on the platform.  Smart money won't follow dumb money.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@timcliff ·
$0.05
It is not possible to create a new blockchain based on the Steem blockchain, without explicit written permission from Steemit, Inc.
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@benjojo ·
No solution can be perfect - what about...

1. Ask all whales to accept a freeze on all their rewards so there is no further accumulation of SP. Instead they will be working to raise the value of Steem and allow others (whose efforts they appreciate) to catch up.

2. Ask witnesses to burn or recycle excess Steem earned as a witness....is there is any....into minnow / new account reward initiatives.

3. Identify all the accounts that are still active and have contributed to the Steemchain (content, comments or curation) and reward all of them with SP from the Steemit account. Again ask really big holders to pass on this bonus. Also, ask the active accounts to freely identify additional accounts and not accounts if they are willing and make a best effort where the are not.

4.  Announce a date in the future where new proven individual accounts that join Steemit and actively contribute to a threshold level and receive a threshold level of votes will receive a bonus in Steem from the Steemit account.

5. Do the above for existing accounts and yet again ask the whales to pass on the bonus.

I think you get the idea. I accept this is not perfect and I do not own the Steem in the Steemit account! ;) The objective would be to supercharge the distribution of Steem and create a much larger number of dolphins, incentivise a lot of growth, raise the price of Steem, show everyone that the whales can work in everyone's interests. 

(The whales were their front and centre into an experiment. All of them have tried their best...even those who have exploited certain unintended realities of the system.)

If we can work together to pull this off....imperfect though it is....what a remarkable expression of the effectiveness of this community.  What a magnanimous act it would be for all the whales to agree. What an incredible example and what a story.

Now because I have faith in the whales, I think Steem can give us all a better future and because I'm putting forward an idea that requires sacrifice, if something like this is implemented and the whales all agree to not accept additional rewards, I'll do the same.

There is no need to fracture this community, it may not seem like it and it's a bit of an effort, but if we stick this out and solve these problems for ourselves, we'll be that much stronger in the end.  We can give up any time, that easy.
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@timcliff ·
Way to be constructive :)

1. Unfortunately there are too many whales that will not go along with this idea. Many of the whales see themselves as actually using their stake in ways that are beneficial to the platform, so they will not see giving away their power as 'good for the platform'. Some are interested in profit for themselves, so they will not see that as good either.
2. The witnesses themselves do not earn much. Even a "full time" (top 19) witness only earns about 260 SP per day. At current market prices, that is about $26 per day.
3. What Steemit, Inc. plans to do with the @steemit account is still a mystery. There are a lot of fun possibilities. We'll just have to wait and see.
4. Also a cool idea. See response to #3.
5. Same :)

I think continuing to discuss ideas and solutions to the problem is really good. As I said above, I think most people (at least the ones I talk to) all seem to agree that the disproportionate stake is one of the largest things affecting user retention in a negative way.
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@bitcoinparadise ·
Address it in a way that is fair to the original stakeholders? But the original stakeholders have not been fair and taking advantage of the community.
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@timcliff ·
That is a very unhealthy narrative and I disagree. How has there been any taking advantage of? Everybody that is here is here of their own free will, and has participated based on the rules of the blockchain.
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@krnel ·
They still  keep all their STEEM, and can keep earning more. It's about shifting from a primary focus of a corporate mindset, towards including more decentralization to empower the individuals who build the community and are the community (shareholders, and everyone included, but money doesn't make one have more power to decide things in the community). The investors invest to make money. Put the power to direct the community in the actual community's hands of everyone, not the concentrated power of 50 accounts. Steemit Inc is heading towards non-profit organization, that's away from purely corporate model. The community that builds Steemit.com needs that same shift, with the decentralization and community becoming the primary focus, not the corporate mindset.
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@timcliff ·
Hi @krnel - thanks for your reply. How do you convince the whales to give up their voting power / influence, and along with that their curation rewards?
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@snowflake ·
>Are there any workable proposals on the table that can address this?

There are many solutions who have been discussed at lenght in the past couple weeks.

I proposed the user/moderator thing, dan atstarlite proposed to create 2 type of steem power ( steem stake and steem power), smooth proposed a system where users who vote would be penalized by receiving less inflation and I've seen others like you proposed modified version of my proposal . Those are all workable, the million dollar question is do people care enough to want any of them?

Another thing that could be done is to remove curation reward so that whales have more incentives to delegate their voting power. I think many won't even bother voting if there was no curation reward, this and removing the curve will probably improve power concentration. Whales understand that if they give up their power the retention will be much better but most are too greedy so if we remove curation many will probably refrain from voting.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@personz ·
> The Steemit.com community, as a metaphor to a company that pays out shares to people who work to create content products, should be run by employees who do work, not by shareholders. That's not how a regular company is managed. The shareholders don't make the decisions in a company, the management workers do. Workers themselves, the overall employees, can manage an organization as well, just like a cooperative does.

Have you been reading Marx's _Das Kapital_? 😂  This is pretty much the premiss of communism, which from what I read from your posts you oppose. Not socialism though, where equality is maintained by reducing the advantage of wealth and mitigating it's disadvantage. But the workers taking the power from the wealthy class.

Joking aside, I think in fact you're talking about **egalitarianism**, especially here:

> In a real common-unity community, individuals can't simply use their wealth to go around and control how things work in the community. It's not up to that one person how things in a community really work, it's up to the community to decide. Individuals can work towards common-unity by decentralizing the concentration of power that prevents the community from being able to make decisions fairly and equally. The amount of wealth, money or shares does not determine common-unity, nor what should happen in a community simply based on the whims of one or a few individuals who have the concentration of wealth that they think gives them power over others.

Egalitarianism can be [defined](http://www.thefreedictionary.com/egalitarianism) as

> a social and political philosophy asserting the equality of all men, especially in their access to the rights and privileges of their society.

and [Wikipedia asserts](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egalitarianism) can be synonymous with decentralization of power.

It's a political philosophy which communism, socialism, anarchism and libertarianism have in common, though with quite different approaches.

> Individuals can have wealth, but their wealth doesn't determine what is right or wrong in a community.

I think this is a basic justice that most people accept except the most hardcore capitalists. However I think Steem really is hardcore capitalists, and as you found out recently, power is the be all and end all here.

Currently wealth on steem does not determine what's right, but does determine what should be rewarded. Remember that you do not have to be wealthy to be a top 19 witness (though it helps), you just have to be popular (and that's how it helps I guess) and be able to run the gear. I'll be counting on this soon.

There are two problems I can see with an egalitarian steem as described by you: populism and immigration.

### Populism

One user one vote leaves open all sort of problems analogous to populist politics. Everyone gets a say, but all community members are presumed to have integrity and the community's best interest at heart. This is not the case.

> If all you care abot [sic] is your individual self-interest, and are trying to shape the community into your own self-interest because "you have the power", then you're not working as a common-unity.

I think the reason why self-interest is the _bottom line_ here is because it is the bottom line in reality. Given the choice, you will more often than not choose your own preservation and advancement (or that of your extremely close family) over that of others. We expend a lot of effort making social connections with each other mitigate that baseline case.

For technical reasons too it's problematic. Controlling a lot of accounts will become more important than controlling a lot of steem, and from what I've read this opens the system up to Sybil attacks and other exploits.

### Immigration

Again, this is interesting considering your posting history on the subject, but one of the things that power-by-stake insures is that new people coming in have very little say until they get "paid" enough, unless of course they buy in a lot. It seems like a pipe dream that a newcomer minnow could get to be a whale by writing great posts alone, but I don't think that was ever the design.

It's funny, by analogy, a rich person can "emigrate" to steem now and enjoy a lot of power if they bring some of their wealth with them. This is seems as a positive by the steem founders as this wealth goes to the system as a whole, but by your arguments this gives them a problematic advantage with the possibility that they don't care about the community, certainly don't know them, and can deal out devastating flags as they wish.

For my money / steem, it comes down to this: the founders argument is that by investing in the platform it becomes increasingly in the interest of the investor to protect their investment by acting well on the platform. I think the problem that you and others identified (before going full communist on us 🤣  jk) is that there is a lot of gray area for what is right behaviour.

We want people to emigrate here, right? Especially the rich? I'm not sure myself but I think the steem plan is yes. Really it doesn't matter how long you've been here, steem invested is all that matters. You could have been given / earned that in the first week, or buy it tomorrow.

I've read from others that it all could have been corrected if there wasn't so much given out at the start and if there wasn't traditional mining at the start. It seems to make sense, but I don't know what other way it could have been, except that the people benefiting might be different. Remember that there was once a faucet giving away 5 Bitcoin for free!

### Failure?

If there is a failure it's in the idea that whales will police each other and that there won't be collusion at the top end. The whitepaper says that deterring abuse is not the goal, just deterring enough of it so as for Steem to keep value and for the community to stay intact. To quote from pg 18 (as I'm wont to do these days)

> Eliminating “abuse” is not possible and shouldn’t be the goal. Even those who are attempting to “abuse” the system are still doing work. Any compensation they get for their successful attempts at abuse or collusion is at least as valuable for the purpose of distributing the currency as the make-work system employed by traditional Bitcoin mining or the collusive mining done via mining pools. All that is necessary is to ensure that abuse isn’t so rampant that it undermines the incentive to do real work in support of the community and its currency.

Again this is actually the original idea. Wealth is seem as a direct result of investment, and since investment is faith in the project, these people are rewarded because without faith Steem does not have value. Don't forget that, from one perspective, the social network is really just bootstrapping the Steem coin.

### Finally

One last point. Let's say we start off with giving everyone exactly the same power on Steem, so say a vote of 1. Nearly everyone agrees that greater investment in the platform means you should have a greater say, but perhaps the increase in power is too much. All this requires then is an adjustment of how much more power the most invested person should have over the least invested person. 2x as much? 10x? 100x? What we have now is many many orders of magnitude (I think). It would be possible to make the disparity less without throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Because that is what you're talking about. What you outline here would need to be implemented in a new blockchain from the start. You can ask @ned and @dan to grant you permission, and you'd have to as I just found out from @timcliff that it's expressly forbidden by the license of the steem blockchain software.

---

> It's a long struggle to get consciousness to understand how to maximize individual empowerment within a cooperative community focus.

True that! 😭   But I'm not sure Steem is exactly designed for it. However I think there is still a lot of scope here to see how it goes, see what happens, and try to build the community you want to see.
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@freebornangel ·
Please correct your definitions,....
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/alexander-berkman-what-is-communist-anarchism
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/emma-goldman-there-is-no-communism-in-russia

Communism is not what you have been led to believe,...
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@personz ·
I invite you to correct me yourself 🙂
👍  
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@krnel ·
You're final conclusion seems like that's a good solution for Steemit to get a more egalitarian system. But what about metrics? The decision making , the delegation of vote power, to be based on metrics such as having posted or commented, or also gained a following of other real users who do the same, to build a network of human connectivity and demonstrate a real human person. Then you get access to influence in the system, just not at first. A community of humans who participate in the community, not outlying accounts or a concentration of power in few hands. How does that sounds? It's about the users who actually use the site, and are the community that creates the community and the fruit on the site (not the code/functionality that is the backbone).

A better system is limited by people's attachment to bots as an alleged "solution" for a human attention economy. Humans have attention like other animals, bots don't. So I guess this might never going be possible online because bots are here to stay? Hehe... In real life this plan for individual empowerment through decentralization is possible, maybe online it never will be? I'm trying to work towards the most optimal creation that we can make that will truly empower people and have them intrinsically motivated to want to work towards it's success because they have a fair say in how things go ahead. The concentration of power prevents that online, in Steem, anywhere, and even in the real world. Like my [witness declaration](https://steemit.com/witness-category/@krnel/krnel-s-declaration-of-witness) said:

> Anyone who has followed my work, or has looked at the work I started with, will know my goal is to help change the world for the better. I want to use Steemit to do it. I appreciate all the support for the specific work I put out in that effort, and will also appreciate your support as a witness for the Steem blockchain. I want to take the new model of the blockchain changing the world, and keep going into changing ourselves so that we can change the world for the better.

I see the root of the rewards problem, and other problems, and it's all from trying to force a corporate shareholder mindset into running a community of people. And the idea that just because someone has wealth, money, shares, whatever, that this makes them most suitable to decide how things operate, whether 1 or 50 people having the concentration of power.

Thanks for the feedback. Peace.
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@personz ·
That's more or less my conclusion, really I could have just said that but guess I had to get there somehow. 😶

All I'm suggesting is that _relative power could be reduced without dismissing it entirely_. This is in line with what we see in real human communities which actually are egalitarian (however not idealized ones which have never existed). Some are more powerful but power is limited by the community.

This is in response to how I would summarize the genearl point of your post: the whales have too much power. You might be calling for complete equality but I think there is a good argument for keeping some disparity, in the name of benefit from work done (which I know you'll agree with) and previous investment (though this may have been obtained early at a pittance).

You've correctly identified the situation: this is a corporate model. To oppose it is to reject it and thus reject Steemit, as it is built on it, from the foundation. You are calling for an overhaul which will not be popular with those in power now as it will be something completely different. One has to consider that it is also an aspect of the technical blockchain which is Proof of Stake and cannot simply be removed.

As I see it, from a practical perspective, revolt is not possible. This uncovers the truth which is hiding in plain sight: the community will never be run on moral grounds; it will be run on the rules laid out in the beginning.

To to reiterate, _whales can only reduce their relative power_. To do what you propose is not Steem. That said, I'd be interested in seeing your idea done, I just don't think it can be done here.

On bots and the attention economy, I would love to see a **technical solution** for this because as I see it there is none. I would like to be proven wrong on this.

Thank you also for replying, as always KrNel, it's interesting. 😄
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@freebornangel ·
For those that thought they were building a powerhouse of power bloggers this is a difficult time, they are realizing that social media has a lot more of the unwashed than they had in mind when they opened the doors.

Not all of us can blog like you, @krnel, nor should we, somebody has to do the voting,....

Steemsports, imo, was shut down due to rampant wealth speading, most of my sp comes from them.
Now we have a new redistribution scheme and I am looking for the ban hammer to fall just as quick as it reaches the mainstream,...

When a whale votes everybody else loses, perhaps whales should lighten up on the little guys, for the good of the platform.
80% of nuthin' is still nuthin',...

As long as sp sharing doesn't pass, and a new reward curve does, Steemit will make sense to the small fry, and maybe we can keep some of them from leaving soooo fast.
👍  
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@j3dy ·
what's that about steem sports has it been cut already?
👍  ,
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@freebornangel ·
It used to be that you could vote the post and vote the comment of your choice to win and share in the rewards pool.
There were issues in that ss didn't want to share the sp, and was taking over half the money the post gathered.
Also they were powering up toooo many minnows,....about half of my sp came from them.
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@j3dy ·
so that's a problem, half for the creator and the rest for the minnows, I never liked the concept, or resteeming and upvoting something I didn't care abut that much just for the rewards :|
👍  
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@freebornangel ·
Resteeming doesn't get you any rewards, clogs your blog, and annoys the folks here that value original content.
I do it rarely.
And I agree, if  I don't like it, I don't vote it.

The problem is that the upper echelons of the hierarchy doesn't like their influence getting watered down, and I was making bank by voting for the right teams.
SS was making bank, too. 

Their sp was gonna make them a super whale, I may have called it first, but I certainly called it.
My idea was to start powering it down and add it to the reward pool, but instead they just took it offsite and put it behind a pay wall.

Now there is another, I won't out him because I am again making bank, but the issue is gonna come up again, I'm sure.
👍  
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@frankbacon ·
$0.03
This reads almost like the operator's manual for the Steem Blockchain.
This will be bookmarked and revisited over and over again I'm sure. 
Thank you for all the information and thank you to all of the commenters.
Quite a remarkable post in my humble opinion.
👍  
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@krnel · (edited)
Hehe thanks for the glowing review. I really want people to get this understanding of decentralization to empower individuals with intrinsic motivation to feel like they matter and belong and invest their time to build the platform/community. Centralization of power can do the opposite.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@frankbacon ·
Well you've done a remarkable job.  I've been saying for a while now,
"The Disruption will continue until disintermediation improves!"
And I'm also of the opinion that Hierarchy is breaking down and the default is natural Heterarchy.
Steem is an experiment that is barely a year old...  for a Blockchain, that's almost like ten human years.  It will be going through it's Terrible Teens pretty soon.  I'm ready...  Been ready for awhile.
I think it's a remarkable platform and I'm an adaptor.  As the world's first, scientifically fictitious character, living on a Blockchain, I have some "Skin" in this game... If you know what I mean ; )

Thank you again for this deeply involved piece.
![Imgur](http://i.imgur.com/LuNVW3H.jpg)
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@remlaps · (edited)
$0.03
It kind-of seems like the steemit community might be a good fit for a [holacracy](http://www.holacracy.org/) , as described in the video I embedded and summarized in [Order in Business Without Top-Down Control](https://steemit.com/blog/@remlaps/order-in-business-without-top-down-control).  I'm only familiar with the concept in passing, but I believe step 1 is to establish a constitution.

@dan posted something about the need for [a constution](https://steemit.com/steem/@dan/draft-steem-constitution) a while back, too.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@stellabelle ·
$0.06
This is what happens when power and money have been given to the wrong people:
https://youtu.be/StMQmFUBm48
👍  
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vote details (1)
@stellabelle ·
$0.06
I see the main problem: giving huge amounts of power and money to people who don't know how to socialize, build communities, write, read and create. This is the central problem that continues to plague the entire ecosystem. 
You raise very valid points, however, Dan has designed this system and chose to initially reward miners who for the most part illustrate exceedingly anti-social tendencies, that we are still suffering underneath.
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@krnel ·
Yeah. Ideas can be bad, but are tried, and fail. Like the HUGE daily inflation rate prior to HF16. It never made sense to me that one could simply create so much currency without negative consequences. Mistakes are made. Now we need to face them, and correct them. The concentration of power needs to be addressed once and for all, and resolved to empower the individuals who use the platform and create this community of people. Thanks for the feedback.
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@stellabelle ·
my biggest question is, did you watch my video? I think you can appreciate it because it deals with everything you've been discussing...
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