Viewing a response to: @finnian/re-lukestokes-re-larkenrose-67obapny-20181021t211327046z
I can't speak for people, but as it relates to me personally, my own relationship with Graham was based on the way he interacted with me personally. His approach made it very difficult for me to appreciate his perspective. I do my best to withhold judgement on people until I have direct experience with them to corroborate the claims made. This approach allows me to avoid judging someone based on hearsay. It also means I might be late to the party in rightfully judging someone as a bad actor if I've only ever seen good (from my limited perspective). As I've mentioned in comments above, I'm not as interested in exposing people as I am in exposing bad ideas and promoting good ones. From the beginning, to me, this seemed all about Adam the person which is a conversation I wasn't all that interested in, especially if the ideas put forth by Adam in Freedom are good (and I think they are). I'm sorry to hear this has been so frustrating for you. I think in any healthy community we need all kinds of diverse perspectives. Maybe some people do have to focus more on the personalities, reputations, and identities involved. Maybe that's not for everyone though.
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Finnian is frustrated for good reason. It appears you still donโt quite grok the scope of this, @lukestokes, and are going even further to continue misrepresenting the situation. I made it painfully clear it was about principle and voluntaryism from the beginning. It is very disturbing to me that this is still being presented by you as being a personal thing. It is, was, and always has been only about one thing: individual self-ownership. I will not stay quiet when those pretending to support this axiom denigrate it, communication styles suitable to everyone or not. A is A. A is not B. Whether I am caustic or not, and whether that is not a healthy communication style, does not change the reality of what was being indicated. I really wish you could give me a chance here, but even now you are misrepresenting this as though I had some personal beef with Kokesh. I could care less about slimy politicians. Slimy politicians that call themselves voluntaryists, however, need to be called out loudly.
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I'm not sure what you want from me. When you say "those" and you talk about "slimy politicians" I see a focus on people. I prefer a different approach. I'm not saying you don't also focus on principles and if that's what you're hearing than please allow me to clarify: **I know you care very deeply about voluntaryism and self-ownership principles.** AND I don't prefer the way you focus on individuals (from my perspective), writing whole posts about them (as you did about me). We have different approaches and preferences. Let's leave it at that.
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I focused on principle, from the start, and the record is on the blockchain. Yes, I will leave it at that, and let others arrive at their independent conclusions. Before marginalizing dissidents and targets, though, I would urge and encourage you to please step back, and truly consider the argument next time, and not the person making it, as the primary factor. In other words, to take your own advice and admonitions here. Thanks, Luke.
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All kinds of diverse perspectives? Kokesh is not a Voluntaryist. Kenny is not a Voluntaryist. When someone says or writes that they are for individual liberty and self ownership but prove otherwise, they should be called out for being inconsistent. This has NEVER been about attacking anyone in particular. It has been about defending the truth and the life long objective of furthering individual liberty's cause. You were wrong, and you defended the wrong people. You were defending people who were being inconsistent. Either you're for furthering individual liberty and self ownership, or you are not. What Graham, myself, or anyone else does is meaningless compared to that primary objective. None of us are important. The objective is. This is the problem I have with so many fair weather friends in this battle. There are very few principled people who put the mission before the individual. Graham has ALWAYS done that from my experience. Larken has too. I will not drop my "ideology" to get along either. What we are fighting for is worth way more than you, me, Larken, and everyone involved combined. The literal liberty of future generations is at stake. Fight like you understand that fact.
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You're calling out individuals while saying it's not about individuals? That's confusing to me. My diverse perspectives comment referred to the different perspectives Graham and I have about calling people out and trying to control labels. To me, it comes across like a form of identity politics. Others may not see it that way, but that's how I perceive it. I'm fine with saying we have different approaches. What I see as calling someone out (or even attacking them), you see as a principled action about protecting a larger ideal and not about the individual at all. Okay, we have different approaches and preferences there. I'm fine with leaving it at that.
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By labels you mean the term Voluntaryist though, right? If you do not believe in self ownership, you cannot be a Voluntaryist. If you do not believe in private property, you cannot be a Voluntaryist. I'm not trying to control that label. The term means a very specific thing. Therefore, do not fault people who try to defend it.
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Imagine thinking that claiming a stance which violates the central axiom of voluntaryism, is not voluntaryism, is โidentity politicsโ ๐คฆโโ๏ธ
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>what we are fighting for is worth way more than you, me, Larken and everyone involved combined Sounds like something ben farmer would say...
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Except, I live it and believe it 100%. He's just a wannabe tyrant who's deceiving people. Search for yourself. I have said and written numerous times that individual liberty is worth ANY price to me. People who agree are my friends. People who choose security over liberty are not.
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You call out Adam as not being a voluntaryist due to a litany of violations of self-ownership & the NAP, like: * Claiming that political power is valid, that voting can instill power * Threatening people (generally quite vaguely from what I've seen from Graham) * Attempting to hire someone to violate someone else (allegedly, all the communications I've seen from Graham show Ben Farmer as the one doing this. I'm not saying it didn't come from Adam to Ben, but I haven't specifically seen that so far) Literally in the same comment, you say that I am not a voluntaryist, not separating either of us through the rest of your post, or in any way explaining that your statement about me is simply because we hold different beliefs on the idea of land ownership, and not because of any actions, threats, or other violations that I committed (because I haven't). You don't offer a single time that I've been inconsistent with anarchist/voluntaryist principles: * Self ownership * Non-Aggression * Voluntary interaction I don't believe in the holy water, but wouldn't spit in it... I don't believe in the metaphysical properties of dreadlocks, but I wouldn't cut someone's off... I don't believe in race, but I wouldn't tell someone they can't identify as _____... I don't believe in land ownership, but I wouldn't commit violence against you (or even talk shit about you) because you do. You already know all of this, because we had LONG conversations about it, and by talking about me as though I *"writes that they are for individual liberty and self ownership but prove otherwise"* (especially in the same thought as someone who is actually being accused of violating the NAP), is at best dishonest.
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Hoping the agreement to support Kokesh via TribeSteemUp is terminated now?
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You don't believe in private property, Kenny. Sorry, you're no friend of mine or individual liberty.
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Not everyone is compatible with everyone's approaches. Like, some people ca't stand how bubbly I am in my videos, and that's ok. Others love it. Kafka is very passionate and in your face sometimes. I get it, I can handle it. I don't vibe with certain other people and I vibe with others. Not everyone is compatible.
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