Viewing a response to: @kafkanarchy84/defining-voluntaryism-no-private-property-is-not-optional-addressing-lukestokes
Ownership of oneself seems straightforward enough. It seems that things get more complicated when claiming ownership of things like pieces of the globe or lakeside plots of land. It had been explained to me that using ones energy on nature can give someone claim of ownership like in the clearing of forests to make fields. Such a criteria sounds subjective, and unworkable, to me.
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I think this is far less subjective than the current paradigm of “I’m a special leader, that’s mine” but there are of course gray areas. However, where Luke’s claim is concerned, no. That is not gray at all. I am a self-owner. Consent necessitates self-ownership (private property).
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Please, do not misrepresent my actual views. My actual views on private property related to my comment deal directly with the complexities of land ownership. That was one of our original disagreements regarding national parks, if you remember. If I wasn't clear about my views, please ask for clarification.
post_id | 64,749,209 |
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author | lukestokes |
permlink | re-kafkanarchy84-re-novacadian-re-kafkanarchy84-defining-voluntaryism-no-private-property-is-not-optional-addressing-lukestokes-20181023t021916836z |
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I did. Only to be told I was not focusing on ideas and principles, but people. My reply to @novacadian is about the fact that ISO is private property. I did not say there were no gray areas in regard to private property issues. It is not hard to understand. Thanks for your input.
post_id | 64,749,474 |
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author | kafkanarchy84 |
permlink | re-lukestokes-re-kafkanarchy84-re-novacadian-re-kafkanarchy84-defining-voluntaryism-no-private-property-is-not-optional-addressing-lukestokes-20181023t022651194z |
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I completely agree with you. Land ownership is very tricky which means some aspects of private property are very tricky. If you go back far enough, land ownership claims almost always involve some violent group against another. Self-ownership seems obvious to me as well, but surprisingly I've actually had debates with people who feel otherwise. It's usually a waste of time.
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Then we are in agreement here, that voluntaryism is always based on private property norms of one sort or another because *self-ownership is private property.* This is ALL I am saying. Thus, asserting that some legitimate conceptions of voluntaryism are not based on property is incorrect, by definition.
post_id | 64,750,535 |
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author | kafkanarchy84 |
permlink | re-lukestokes-re-novacadian-re-kafkanarchy84-defining-voluntaryism-no-private-property-is-not-optional-addressing-lukestokes-20181023t025241234z |
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Are you going to put efforts into improving the Wikipedia page? I agree with your perspective, I'm simply saying not everyone does and as evidence I give the encyclopedia. Self ownership is a form or private property, yes. There are many forms of private property, many nuances to it (such as land rights and land disputes) which are not at all clear. Some people have views on those aspects of private property which you or I may not agree with, but they still hold to the NAP, self-ownership, and a "philosophy which holds that all forms of human association should be voluntary." I've met these people. I don't agree with them on everything, but I won't tell them what labels they are allowed to use based on nuanced private property disagreements. That was the point was trying to make, not that self-ownership isn't part of voluntaryism.
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There has to be some form of private property ownership though. Some land, like the lakeside lot, is going to be worth more than other land. Some land will have gold on the surface or under it. Other land will not. Land near fertile areas will be worth more than desert land. Humans have to have a fair way to control those areas. If there is no private property system, who gets to control it then? Who decides where who lives? Who gets the lot with gold, and who gets to live beside the lake? That group or that person then becomes a ruler.
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My feeling is that to move forward on a voluntarian system we need to adopt a stewardship mentality when it comes to property (land) ownership. With an exceptable criteria of good stewardship a community could then decide to assign or revoke stewardship to land depending on how the individual lives up to that criteria.
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Ad long as each individual in the society voluntarily agrees to this system, sure.
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I'm a business owner, and I plan to add more businesses to my list of assets. Am I inherently evil for owning them? I also plan to buy properties with houses or cabins on them to rent to people. Does that make me evil? According to some people here, I'm not "allowed" to have such things. Having them makes me a tyrant in their opinion apparently.
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