@tipu curate 2

"I'm here for the long term" this statement summarises my feelings about Steem. 

decentralization also means we can all make our own standards. Everyone is basically their own boss. 

Circle jerking has been on my mind for a while but you know, I'm good with it and the whole essence of steem is having the power to create quality.  

You talk about reward disagreement but we also need to create something like a Union to prevent the potential of abuse. I get scared of downvoting because of retaliation. 

I suppose the next thing to fix would be how to reward quality posts...

I start to see the problematic of voteselling and liking the idea of the downvotes. Never used them yet, but the chance of my first downvote rising gets higher everyday. Never tought that likes and upvotes became so important in general. 

First players hit 50% ROI, after 15 days, woop woop
[![](https://cdn.steemitimages.com/DQmU9JevqQwHJbR8WvEnSwBCSi1J7ir4RddFuteeCVNFw8m/image.png)](https://a1fighters.com?r=43)

You're definitely correct, at the end of the day, it boils down to healthy environment, it's no compulsory that everybody goes kumbaya and cheers and all, when we have disagreements it creates a certain kind of equilibrium that makes for check and Balance in the Steem Community. Obviously relationship are essential and that's why it's important that we maintain them as much as there are a  a lot of prejudice about steem, we believe it'll grow with time and the relationships we build now is what'll will determine the behaviors that will be carried for a lasting period and that's why it's good to maintain a good reputation here on steem. Thanks a million Dan, this is wonderful.

Well said.

Let's take your example of two individuals buying stake and only upvoting each other. I think the problem in that case is that all they would be adding to this platform is an initial investment. They wouldn't be adding any network value, as they're only interacting with each other. I think it goes without saying that anyone doing that would be on constant power down/sell cycle, and this is what we see with a lot of circle jerks. By that I mean the obvious groups of people who are literally only swapping votes and the odd comment with each other, while ignoring the wider community. This is the thing that drives many many new users away. It's the thing I spotted here 2 years ago when I first started and I nearly left. I remember it well actually, I stopped posting for about 10 days and then woke up one day and thought, let's have another crack at working out if there is any way to actually get noticed organically in this place. Luckily curie voted the next post i made lol. My stubborn nature paid off 😂

This is what I see as the major problem with the whole issue of vote swapping (circle jerks), it's not that I can't recognise that they've invested money and now they want ROI. But I do have a problem with how off putting observing those closed loops is to intelligent  potential new steemians. This was even worse when I joined as there were people getting upvoted to the tune of 1k in $ value for absolute dog shit posts... and honestly, there is still a core of that old school left here, although there are less these days. The person I'm thinking about as I write this is now averaging $4 - $5 per post, rather than $400+. This is proof that things are changing for the better as their posts certainly haven't improved in quality, but at least the rewards are closer to a qualitive standard. But to be honest, it's probably mainly because they sold a large portion of their stake along with the rest of their circle of 'friends'.

So what's my point? Ha ha, well simply that I think it can't go unchecked because that has, and will continue to, drive decent content creators away. The type of people who would become active, valuable contributers to the community and the network. To attract big investment and big advertising budgets to steem we need a strong network.

I can tell that you're of the same mind when it comes to the obvious over rewarded vote traders from what you've said in this video. Tbh, I'm just thinking outloud here. It's certainly not a simple Q + A subject 🙂

P.s. I'm following the OCD downvote trial now and have experienced retaliatory votes. But you know what, it was worth it. I checked on all of the posts OCD was downvoting in the first 3 days after I joined the trial and all of them were legit downvoting bidbot abuse.

It is getting interesting with the retaliation at the moment and it seems that there is a little bit of "wagon circling" as those who want to keep trading votes band tighter together to punish those who disagree with the rewards. Might get a little lively, but a bit of drama can be valuable.

I couldn’t of said it better myself 💪🏼🙌🏼💯

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Sure, i get where youre coming from and what this is related to but go read this if you want more clarification as to whats going on in the case people have mentioned to you. 
https://steempeak.com/abuse/@lordbutterfly/time-to-deal-with-the-circlejerks-the-slowwalker-broncnutz-dobartim-czechglobalhost-jerkathon

Its not them upvoting friends... its them trading votes. Huge difference.. But even if you put all that aside and say: 
>Well, its not clear cut abuse... i cant honestly downvote...

The fact still remains that they ADMIT to circle jerking and trading votes. They admit to not voting honestly or even caring about the other persons content. They vote to trade votes. To get voted back.. 

Even if you dismiss any and all arguments for "circle jerking" them admitting to it should be enough....

I agree with almost everything you said man. Still remember when Steem was sitting at 4$+ and people were making ridiculous amounts of money from posts and the voters didn't even possess 1/2 of the SP they do now...

I mean...thousands of dollars per post...I was a newcomer then and it seemed unreal, and nobody was giving a shit. Kinda funny considering that we now -mostly due to the bear market- downvote posts from 20$ to 10 or from 10 to 5$...

Don't get me wrong some of them fully deserve it. But it feels like there is an obsession regarding downvotes these days...

The level of hypocrisy is just stunning. Telling about vote manipulation and selfishness and then upvoting himself for 13$. 🤮

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I think it is great that you have brought this topic of conversation up. Personally, I think... that people are over complicating things now! It's like if it is not the one devil - it is the other! It reminds me a little the sports TMO - when you see something at real speed, it shows what happened - but then they slow it down and dissect it from a thousand angles and OFTEN, things slowed down can look a LOT worse than they really are. 

The same can be said for getting into the nitty gritty here on Steem. Take my community for example. We are driven to support one another - so if you take it down to foundation level then we too, would be considered "circle jerkers" - which is utterly ridiculous. You cannot analyse things to that depth because what was once clear becomes distorted by obsession.

I caught wind today, that Steem Basic Income AND it's supporters are in the line of fire for whale downvotes. Now, whilst I understand that perhaps the model of SBI is no longer feasible on "new steem" - I cannot condone those that supported them  for the purpose of contests etc. (myself included) now be punished because their "model" no longer suits the mould. That is a really negative case of micro-managing LOL

"FREE" market - interesting you brought that up. Personally, I have given a LOT of thought to that over the last month +. I completely agree with what you have said in terms of people can do what they please with the stake that they have purchased, but "using your teeth" comes a lot easier when you have a full set of 32 pearly whites. For those that have 10 and even less - biting into that piece of meat can be a little intimidating, especially when it comes to downvoting. You refer to reputation, *(that little number which has proven to be completely worthless to me recently)* and I would have thought this to hold some sort of relevance considering that I have EARNED every SCRAP of SP I own - but at rep 71, being a community head for over 2 years, and an active advocate for the platform I was still SO EASILY dragged through the mud - and that was simply because I ***stood up*** against COMPLETELY BIAS and inappropriate slander hurled in my direction. That took a major toll on my enthusiasm for ALL of my involvement here (for a moment)...

Imagine what that would do to someone who has 500 SP or has only been here a few months.

Everything is easier when you have power - and by power, I mean money.

I have made ONE downvote since HF21 and is not something I go out on a mission to do, but it would seem many have and are. I shared similar sentiment to yours in my server this evening about professionalism and not just that - but making the better choice. Things do not always go our way but how we handle those situations says a LOT about us as individuals and yes, those outcomes start to stack.

You have to find the positive way out in the most negative of situations. take the high road, be the bigger person and lighten the load! It is NOT always easy and YES we ALL fail at it at points, but the simple KNOWING that this is how it "should" be done is a means to an end! 

This however, is NOT currently a reality here. And I say this quite frankly because I had that spoon shoved down my throat first hand. I have always avoided the politics, the conflict and the drama - but I stood up for myself ONCE and ALL the shit hit the fan! lol Many of the people roaming this space which have the "power" - are using it so destructively and like I said to a member in my PHC community about an hour ago - 

>one thing I learnt very quickly in this space, is if you want to make it anywhere, is you either need to keep a low profile when it comes to the politics or the complete opposite - but if you choose the opposite - you had better have the fact, following and fund to ride that wave
I have none of the F's lol
so I keep a low profile.

It should not be like that!!!! 

All in all, I think people need to fncking chill around here! Let people have their say, their opinion. Just bloody respect one another. You do not need to like one another to respect one another! I, and many others should not feel as "shriveled" for FEAR of loss. The world would not go round without diversity and even more importantly - your note at the end - the small stakeholders, put together.... would definitely be a wave on its own - it would be GREAT if the real "ploughers" on steem were afforded a little more respect.

If vote trading is circle jerking, I guess self voting is just jerking off.

I've always seen it as a slightly less enbarassing thing as self voting. Both can lead to reward disagreement. I think if 50% of rewards are organic, quality is average, and rewards aren't sky high....it's not a priority to downvote.

How is vote buying being manipulation ?

You buy ads all over the internet. Steems just sucks no one ever looks on the promoted section.

After 2 years of big players buying spots the only real way to compete now is buying a shit ton of steem or buying a vote or two so you can land on the trending page with a good quality article and get exposure and followers from that.

I thought steem corrected vote buying that it was no longer profitable anyways ?

This is true Sir, at first when we we buying votes, some steemians who were fond in such act were not putting much effort, since they thought that any post could fetch them upvotes.

I know I have been on Steem too long when your title doesn’t even phase me. I am just like “Yea ... let’s talk about cicle jerks”. Meanwhile the person behind me in line looking over my shoulder is like “What the fuck is this weirdo in front of me reading?!?”