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Do you think Palnet "holds no value" and disagree with minnowsupport bot? by glory7

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· @glory7 · (edited)
$27.11
Do you think Palnet "holds no value" and disagree with minnowsupport bot?
Recently, I learned that some Korean users, including myself, were downvoted by users that they do not know. I didn't really know why that happened.

And several hours ago, I found that @whatsup and @tarazkp left replies after downvoting. 

![20190918_092817.jpg](https://cdn.steemitimages.com/DQmRYzMeE3tq6MHSvtk7Tu15qt9DFn1GFcKjF9CYPDNyysg/20190918_092817.jpg)

First of all, thank you for leaving your opinions so that now I can see where it comes from.

I have close to zero communication experience with @tarazkp, but from his high reputation(77) I assume that he has been around for a long time. All I can tell him is that I believe that it is inappropriate to "attack"(downvote) others if you yourself even are not sure what/why you are doing ("very limited understanding", if I use a direct quote.)

---

Now @whatsup 's reply.

Let's start with this part: **"the token which has no real value"**

So you are saying that SCT has no value. What is your reason? 

SCT is the community token for steemcoinpan, one of the earliest steem-engine based communities. And it is also one of the most successful community so far, based on tag usage, user activities, market cap, transaction volume, etc.

Following your logic, I would say that palnet is also "the token has no real value". And I learned that you yourself use the palnet tag too. Let me ask you this question:

**What is the difference between palnet and sct?** is it only because you know people in palnet and don't know people in sct?

---

Second part: **"having people bid with SCT token to receive large steem votes"**

Okay. It seems that you do not like "steem engine bid bots" that accept steem engine token and bid. It is your preference and I understand that people may have different thoughts.

But **have you applied the same criteria to other bid bots, including palnet bid bot (@minnowsupport), steemleo bot (@steem.leo), etc.?**

* As far as I know, no. You have not downvoted these bot users. Seems inconsistent.

---

* Update: it seems that some users do not even know what are being discussed. 

This is a screenshot from [https://steembottracker.com/](https://steembottracker.com/)
<br>

![20190918_193221.jpg](https://cdn.steemitimages.com/DQmaXLNcuuNBTwWWUuXpxyR5wZmxCoSJ89erXVHYzBQczkR/20190918_193221.jpg)
<br>

* sct.voter accepts SCT (steemcoinpan token)

* minnowsupport accepts PAL (palnet token)

The only difference is the symbol: structure is the same.

Oh, and one more difference - the amount of steem power that the project supporters delegated to the bot.

---

I would like to know how steem engine tribe people, including @aggroed and @yabapmatt, regarding this issue.

I believe that downvoting on postings merely based on the fact that they have used steem engine token bid bots will

1. Discourage steem engine tribe community participation, which would reduce steemit community participation at the same time.

2. Negative effect on steem prices as some users may feel disappointed of them receiving downvotes and choose not to power-up or even power down.

---

* I seldom write in English as I mostly communicate with kr(Korean) users. But for this issue, I should use English.

* 한국어 버전은 별도로 포스팅하겠습니다. Korean version of this article will be posted separately.
👍  , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , and 382 others
👎  , , , , , , , , , , , , ,
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@fenrir78 ·
fenrir78님이 glory7님의 이 포스팅에 따봉(20 SCT)을 하였습니다.
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@ukk ·
ukk님이 glory7님의 이 포스팅에 따봉(50 SCT)을 하였습니다.
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@tts ·
To listen to the audio version of this article click on the play image.
[![](https://s18.postimg.org/51o0kpijd/play200x46.png)](http://ec2-52-72-169-104.compute-1.amazonaws.com/glory7__do-you-think-palnet-holds-no-value-and-disagree-with-minnowsupport-bot.mp3)
Brought to you by [@tts](https://steemit.com/tts/@tts/introduction). If you find it useful please consider upvoting this reply.
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@realmankwon ·
realmankwon님이 glory7님의 이 포스팅에 따봉(20 SCT)을 하였습니다.
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@whatsup ·
$0.08
Hello, 

Okay, I worded that poorly...  Palnet and yes, the SCT may hold value at some point.  But creating a bot that gives out large Steem votes when you pay with another token devalues Steem in my opinion.

You make many great points.  Yes, I do apply the same logic to the other bidbots that give out LARGE Steem votes.  I am unconcerned about tiny votes.

Focusing more on SteemMonsters and SCT which are the only ones that I have noticed giving out noticeably large votes.

I'd be happy to discuss if you think I am misunderstanding something.

Thanks for the English post for discussion.
👍  , ,
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@jaydih ·
$0.03
!dramatoken
👍  ,
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@whatsup ·
:)
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@dramatoken ·
<center>
  <img src="https://i.imgur.com/5FTrFXt.png" />
  <p>Such drama, you've earned a DRAMA!</p>
  <p><sup>To view or trade <code>DRAMA</code> go to <a href="https://steem-engine.com/?p=market&t=DRAMA">steem-engine.com</a>.</sup></p>
</center>
👍  
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vote details (1)
@glory7 ·
$0.10
Thank you very much for your reply. I hope we can use this opportunity to enhance mutual understanding of the issue.

Now I understand that you feel uncomfortable that these votes are "large". 

As far as I know, examples of steemmonsters and SCT- they are large as more users (in terms of steem powers) support the project. 

I thought that if the project may gather more steem power to support it, it is better both for steem and the project. But I may be wrong.

So what is your suggestion of solving this issue? For example, who would, and how we can decide which amount is "large"?
👍  , ,
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@whatsup ·
$0.08
![](https://cdn.steemitimages.com/DQmZm2wSkeY3iS3DcHDWSSYc4G2w3E79VXGyPquPCUeXug4/image.png)

A $27 dollar upvote in exchange for some SCT tokens to me does seem large on one post that ends up on trending and although the translation tool are rough, didn't really appear to be anything special.

Regarding solving it, there is no hostility involved and in comparison my vote is tiny.  Your group can just ignore them since the vote is likely still profitable, although I do wish your group would consider how that impacts Steem and how it feels to other content creators.
👍  ,
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@smongo ·
오늘도 즐몬하세요~
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@jsquare ·
jcar토큰 9월 구독 보팅입니다. 
좋은 하루 보내세요. ^^
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@happyberrysboy ·
happyberrysboy님이 glory7님의 이 포스팅에 따봉(20 SCT)을 하였습니다.
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@donekim ·
donekim님이 glory7님의 이 포스팅에 따봉(77 SCT)을 하였습니다.
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@jaydih ·
!dramatoken
👍  
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vote details (1)
@dramatoken ·
<center>
  <img src="https://i.imgur.com/5FTrFXt.png" />
  <p>You're upping the drama to new levels! Have a DRAMA.</p>
  <p><sup>To view or trade <code>DRAMA</code> go to <a href="https://steem-engine.com/?p=market&t=DRAMA">steem-engine.com</a>.</sup></p>
</center>
👍  
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vote details (1)
@jaydih ·
좋은 방향으로 풀아갈 수 있기를 바랍니다..
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@kibumh ·
감사 감사
잘 해결되길 바랍니다.
요즘 저도 spt 100% 매일 다운보팅 먹는중입니다.
그냥 무시합니다. ㅋ
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@leeyh2 ·
I think the Witnesses who made Downvoting mana on HF21 and HF22 should think again.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@mermaidvampire ·
$0.03
Can they not warn you prior the downvote about what you need to avoid? Did they at least try to reach SCT and tell them about their new policy? Is this how New Steem deal with abuses, surprise attacks small accounts and communities and want them to abandon something they have invested their money, time and effort in? Is downvote the only cure to abuses? Is this not borderlining into bullying and power tripping? I probably missed a lot of communications or there are no proper communications. 

Can they not do better than this?
👍  , ,
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vote details (3)
@glory7 ·
Thank you for your opinion. I don't really know what new steem movement is, but hope such downvotes are not one of the movement.
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@mermaidvampire · (edited)
$0.02
Well, it's a good idea in theory and hopefully soon in practice. New Steem is something I like and I want to happen because that actually is a sign that Steemit Inc still cares to make Steemit better. I can only share 1 very nice material to you, just try to get to the recent posts of exyle, there is one recent post where he makes a comparison of the new steem and old steem and why new steem is better. I like it, it convinced me about the new steem and I know exyle to be straightforward and clear about his ideas, opinions and thoughts. Very nice read. 

I mean, I obviously like and appreciate new steem but this practice of "join us downvote and surprise small users with flags" is something dreadful in my opinion because anyone can and should warn people or at least tell them what's new.  I mean it's possible to do that first, why ain't anyone doing that?
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@mermaidvampire ·
I used bidbots because that was a way for me to invest in Steem and that was how I grew my account without any whale support or attention. I am not saying bidbots are not abusive, but not everyone abused Steemit via bidbots. As far as I am concerned I only withdrew significant amount of SBD/Steem once, back when I was starting 30 SBD when it was worth 7 USD each. Just to prove that Steemit was not scam. I bidbot not to game the system and make me earn, I bidbot to grow my account and help make my community of plankton that less people cared. Then lately, I have just been surprised with downvotes. I stopped sending bids because I actually understand how they want to fix the bidbot abuse and I appreciate that. But you know, tagging you as an abuser, downvoting you suddenly without any warning coming from an authority... I guess that is not what I expected.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@whatsup ·
Removing a total of $2 is not saying it is abuse.  It is only stating that in one opinion it is over valued.

I've used bots too.  Doesn't mean a mildly interesting post should be on trending with a a $27 purchased blind vote.  :)
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@ericet ·
$0.02
I think sct is by far the most successful and most valuable Scot tribe.
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@trafalgar · (edited)
$0.03
Don't buy and sell votes, it undermines honest voting.

Content creators are competing for the attention of stakeholders in a level playing field. Paying for votes completely defeats the process of rewarding and discovering content based on the voters subjective appraisal which is required for our platform to succeed.

I am even more against schemes that require buyers to dump Steem to purchase votes using an altcoin as it has all the above harmful effects while putting downward price pressure on Steem directly. My downvotes will be very focused on this set of behaviors.

My recommendation is if you believe these alts are pricing in unchallenged vote buying into their value, then that's likely not going to continue for long and your best bet is to sell them before others do, including the creators of these alts themselves.

I am not the only large stakeholder against these initiatives.
👍  , , , , , ,
👎  ,
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vote details (9)
@glory7 · (edited)
$0.03
First of all, I believe we have not "met". And I find it uncomfortable that someone, stranger to me, directly  "orders" me what to and what not to do.

And let me clarify your misunderstanding regarding steem engine tokens. 

Many steem engine tribes, especially SCT, has incentived users to **BUY lots steem which supported steem prices.** @aggroed will confirm that SCT alone has gathered more than a million steem. Or I guess one may check historic inflow of steem from exchanges (say, upbit) that goes to SCT or other token purchases using the blockchain record.

I have not used non-steem engine based bidbots before, so I have limited knowledge in this matter. But as far as I know, these bidbots were mainly supported or run by large stakeholders. Not sure how these large stakeholders think, b/c I am not one of them.

My recommendation is that if you feel uncomfortable or go against these bots, you should talk to the owners/operators of bots first.
👍  , , ,
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vote details (4)
@trafalgar ·
$0.04
They're not being downvoted because of whatever alleged good they're doing.

They're being downvoted because of vote selling. As I explained, it completely undermines the ability for us to function as a fair content rewards and discovery platform, which is our central value proposition.

Of course people can continue to use these services and many will continue to use our free downvotes to make abusive behavior as unprofitable as possible, which is what they're intended for.
👍  
👎  
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vote details (2)
@gomdory ·
곰돌이가 @glory7님의 소중한 댓글에 시세변동을 감안하여 $0.011을 보팅해서 $0.029을 지켜드리고 가요. 곰돌이가 지금까지 총 6531번 $74.533을 보팅해서 $84.876을 구했습니다.  @gomdory 곰도뤼~
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@lordbutterfly ·
This is a very similar method whales on Whaleshares used that brought down the price of WLS significantly. 
Freedomexists being a good example. 

What would happen is that you would sell your WLS for BTS, then use BTS to buy the "Whaletoken" on the market. You would send the whaletoken to the whale and he would upvote you for a higher amount of WLS then you spent. 
This created massive downward pressure on the price of WLS and one of the reasons Whaleshares is pretty much dead. 
SCT wont have such an effect but you can see what stuff like this does. 
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@trafalgar ·
For now SCT and Steemmonsters are operating almost entirely on vote selling through alt coins and a few self/affiliate votes. Maybe there are a few more.

They've been getting away with a lot as most of the attention was focused on conventional bots since the EIP, but I've been targeting them lately as have others
👎  
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vote details (1)
@steemmatt · (edited)
A flag is only an "attack" if you view it as one or if it was malicious. It is more often a disagreement. I don't think you were a victim here.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@glory7 ·
I have asked him about the reason he stated for downvoting, he admitted that his reasnoning was not well articulated. 

I am more interested in the reason of downvoting. As you say, if one disagrees one may state opinion and/or downvote. All I pointed out was that his reasoning was wrong and inconsistent with his other behavior.
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@whatsup ·
Actually I said my explanation wasn't well stated.  The part I was referencing was "No Value" regarding the SCT token.
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@zzings ·
zzings님이 glory7님의 이 포스팅에 따봉(100 SCT)을 하였습니다.
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@philippekiene ·
$0.05
I understand why they have the downvoting system and agree it needs to exist.

But I believe people should be getting taught or informed what they have done before just receiving a downvote! 

In instances like this, I don't understand why the downvoters go after the people learning the ropes instead of taking on the bot owners, if enough people felt as strongly as they did, surely the bot owners would listen?

The downvoters are saying their actions are to improve steem, and I understand they're trying to protect the reward pool. But, I believe their current actions will actually do more damage to the number of users on steem, surely there is a better way... That's just my opinion, time will tell.
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@glory7 ·
Thank you for the opinion. I completely agree that they should talk to bot operators first.

My guess is that these bots are usually owned/operated by "powerful" guys so downvoters do not want to face them.
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@captainklaus ·
It was impossible to really talk to the bot owners; and you can't downvote them as long as they only sell votes but don't post. Besides that, they are exactly the greedy people that are hard to talk to.
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@tarazkp ·
$1.12
It doesn't matter what the SCT token does, but once voting is coming out of the STEEM pool at these levels it will attract attention and these posts are hitting the trending sections and that will attract more attention - that is the idea of attracting votes at that level. Once in the attention, people are going to scrutinize it. What I have found is that the Korean community so far seems to have not been paying attention to what has been happening on Steem at all which is fine, but those on Steem have been.

The downvotes can be for disagreement of rewards or, disagreements of bidbot usage or disagreement of using a random token to buy large Steem votes or any number of reasons, but it is up to the community to decide where the Steem is directed. The tribes can do as they please with their own tokens, as it should be. 

Does the SCT token hold value if there was no STEEM votes available? It seems that this might not be the case considering that they are being swapped out for Steem votes instead of being held as valuable tokens in themselves on their native platform.

What I am glad about is that there is more discussion around these things now as the other bidbots have been reduced to the point activity that has laid hidden can be seen. Thanks for taking the time to write in English too, it is appreciated.
👍  , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,
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vote details (15)
@jaydih · (edited)
$0.06
> Does the SCT token hold value if there was no STEEM votes available? 

This point you wrote actually is an excellent point of measure for any DAPPs or Tokens. I'm not addressing to SCT specific but to general.  Thank you for the valuable comment.

I think in order to be a truly successful dapp or token, it needs to hold value on its own. Steemmonters and their cards is an excellent example.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@tarazkp ·
$0.06
>Steemmonters and their cards is an excellent example.

Yes it is as it stands on its own two feet and provides a use case that has utility without requiring a Steem vote for attraction.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@glory7 ·
It seems that the fact that sct brought more than 1 million steems to power up and hence supported steem prices is consistently ignored.

But your second point deserves more attention. I believe that SCT is much better than steem (and market prices so far confirms it) and it may do much better on other blockchain, but for now it is using steem blockchain network so not independent.
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@yabapmatt ·
> What I have found is that the Korean community so far seems to have not been paying attention to what has been happening on Steem

I don't want to get too involved in this whole conversation, but I just wanted to comment that the converse of the above is also true - that the rest of the Steem community seems to not pay attention to what's going on in the Korean community, and I think that is also a big mistake. The Korean community seems to be one of the largest on the platform in terms of stake, and I suspect that without their support STEEM would be doing far worse than it already is. In fact, from what I understand Steemit, Inc specifically has really dropped the ball in Korea over the past year or so and I think that has contributed heavily to STEEMs huge price decline relative to other cryptocurrencies.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@tarazkp · (edited)
Yes, but as I have found through @jayplayco, most of their interaction other than voting seems to be off Steem and in chat groups, leaving much of the content graveyards to collect votes other than be part of communities. When it comes to the voting of much of that stake, it is "tight-knit" to say the least with one of the largest accounts only voting on itself and alts until very recently after downvote pressure. 

While everyone can do as they please with their own stake, once it enters onto a post with Steem on it, for seven days the final allocation is under negotiation. There is so much value in the Korean community that they could be onboarding locally with and increasing their own worth, yet as I have been told, the Korean community is shrinking. From what I understood (google translated), at least some didn't even know there was a hardfork that changed the economics. 

Price decline is one thing of course, but I don't think keeping staked users who are not interested in developing even their own community growth is really the way to go for a long-term successful platform.
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@chekohler ·
Bid botting regardless of the method on the new Steem is going to be frowned upon unfortunately! 

If you are going to do it, know that you’re going to attract the attention of stakeholders who disagree with it and while you have every right to bid bot your posts for more rewards and exposure so do they have a right to disagree with it and downvote it 

Bit botting isn’t inherently a bad thing but reward farming is what these stakeholders are against 

Yes they are a service available and people can use them as they please. But Let me ask you this, how often do you find other people’s posts you enjoy and bid bot them up to reward them? I’ve done it in the past, there are other use cases for it besides lining your own pockets 
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@glory7 ·
I have not used any non-steem engine bit bots before so I cannot answer the postings used these bots. 

But for the SCT bot, I have enjoyed posting that used sct.voters. 

Thank you for your opinion.
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@lovelyyeon.sct ·
lovelyyeon.sct님이 glory7님의 이 포스팅에 따봉(20 SCT)을 하였습니다.
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@saltyfish ·
Buy CRYPTO INSTANT on https://www.ponga.id
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@lordbutterfly ·
Thx for explaining. I wasnt sure what SCT did so i did not downvote those posts. But i will have to do it now.

Minnowsupport, as far as i know doesnt need to be payed for. It simply provides support to anyone.

SCT from what you said here is basically vote selling, even though it seems you avoided saying that "Sct votes are purchased votes".   

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@glory7 ·
It seems that you really do not know what this is.

![20190918_193221.jpg](https://cdn.steemitimages.com/DQmaXLNcuuNBTwWWUuXpxyR5wZmxCoSJ89erXVHYzBQczkR/20190918_193221.jpg)

Sct.voter takes SCT (steemcoinpan token)

Minnowsupport takes PAL (palnet token)

They are exactly the same, except the symbol.

Have no idea why you assume that minnowsupport does not need to be payed for. 

* If you do not trust me, go [https://steembottracker.com/](https://steembottracker.com/) and check yourself.

---

Feel free to downvote, but apply the same rule for palnet then.
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@lordbutterfly ·
Doesnt matter really. I remember minnowsupport being free to use. 
If they take pal tokens that are purchasable on the market then ill flag them as well.

Posted using [Partiko Android](https://partiko.app/referral/lordbutterfly)
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@virus707 ·
Thank you for your continued support towards JJM. For each 1000 JJM you are holding, you can get an additional 1% of upvote. 10,000JJM would give you a 11% daily voting from the 700K SP virus707 account.
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@kharma.scribbles ·
@givememonsters is a DEC based bid-bot ;)

Some people even auto-downvote any post upvoted by any type of bid-bot, there is an auto-downvote site made just for that - following someone's upvote trail in order to downvote everything in their trail! 

Blind downvoting without looking at a post's content is toxic and just as bad as they say these bid-bots are.

And downvoting __<u>just</u>__ because they dislike the use of bots should be bias discrimination.. 

Posts should be (down)voted on their content solely and a disagreement with the rewards that content is earning. Period.
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@eii ·
!BEER
for @glory7
👍  
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vote details (1)
@beerlover ·
<div class='pull-right'>https://cdn.steemitimages.com/DQmXK1U89BrMJHwgv6BysSpYswN7NA39URStPi65azu3PJo/Sich%20f%C3%BCllendes%20Bierglas.gif<p><sup>View or trade <code>BEER</code> at <a href='https://steem-engine.com/?p=market&t=BEER'>steem-engine</a>.</sup></p></div><center><br><br> <p> Hey @glory7, here is a bit <code>BEER</code> for you. Enjoy it!</p> </center>
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@steem-ua ·
#### Hi @glory7!

Your post was upvoted by @steem-ua, new Steem dApp, using UserAuthority for algorithmic post curation!
Your **UA** account score is currently 4.545 which ranks you at **#2038** across all Steem accounts.
Your rank has not changed in the last three days.

In our last Algorithmic Curation Round, consisting of 108 contributions, your post is ranked at **#10**.
##### Evaluation of your UA score:

* Some people are already following you, keep going!
* The readers appreciate your great work!
* Try to work on user engagement: the more people that interact with you via the comments, the higher your UA score!


**Feel free to join our [@steem-ua Discord server](https://discord.gg/KpBNYGz)**
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@blanchy ·
$0.03
You are right . Most of the tribes are doing  this using these methods. Trading tokens for steem upvotes. If they are gonna flag SCT then they  need to flag every other tribe and we may see how that goes. One  might not be as forthcoming. You ask the question what is too much? Good question. It seems too much is getting your post trending. Dont get it to trending and you have no downvotes. Simples. None of these guys actually read the posts especially if they are in a different language unless of course they trend .  If a rich man  is making a bucket load ,   they are not heading down to the taxman showing off their new yacht!! They keep driving the shoddy old Volvo lambasting the rich smiling in the background. The good thing is that the blockchain is open and transparent and you can see exactly what bots your accusers have used since they have been on this platform. It may make interesting reading.

Posted using [Partiko Android](https://partiko.app/referral/blanchy)
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@glory7 ·
Thank you for your opinion. And your advice was helpful - blockchain records do show lots of interesting history.
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@stablewon ·
^^
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@meesterboom ·
Everyone is being far too fucking civilised. It s a tokenised bid-bot. You know it, we know it. Man up and take the heat in the kitchen. FFS
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