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RE: Female Privilege and Sexism by in-vestments

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Viewing a response to: @veralynn/female-privilege-and-sexism

· @in-vestments · (edited)
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When feminists bring up "male privilege", it has often caused me to think of the many ways that females are privileged. These things are often not complained about by men, and there is no political ideology for men that capitalises on their sense of victimhood, as there is for women.
Female privileges:
- Lower sentencing for the same crime
- Drastically better outcomes in family courts than men
- Not drafted to war
- Negative statements about individual women or women in general are 'misogyny'. Negative statements about individual men or men in general are socially acceptable and even celebrated.
- Women benefit from the status of being automatically seen as the underdog and the victim. They therefore get preferential treatment, affirmative action, and the benefit of the doubt.

But most of all,  females have MASSIVE privilege in terms of sex. This is where feminists want to have their cake, and eat it too. They want to vilify men and masculinity for certain things, without wanting to give up the power that is the root cause of those things. Not that they could give it up anyway, as this state of affairs is biologically hard-wired, and not merely a social construct.

You know the 'key and lock' analogy? "A key that can open any lock is a great key (stud), but a lock that can be opened by every key is a terrible lock (slut)."
As comedian Jim Jefferies puts it: "When you have a baby boy, as a father you think 'I hope he bangs all of the girls in the neighbourhood when he grows up. But when you have a baby girl, you don't think 'I hope she bangs all of the boys'. In order to sleep with a lot of girls, a guy needs to be some combination of good looking, funny, and wealthy. In order for a girl to sleep with a lot of guys, she just needs to be there."
Now, this might seem like a sexist double-standard.  But it underlies a deeper truth about reality: women are more valuable than men. They can give birth and create life. Men are disposable, and have always been treated as disposable throughout history. Men hold women up on a pedestal; part of the dynamic of men being the hunter and women being the hunted, is that in being the hunted they are also the prize. Women use and abuse this sexual leverage every day without even realising it. Yet, they can't really be blamed for it, because that's just the way that nature is. If you don't think that women have power over men, that just reflects the fact that you are blind to your own privilege. Even if society could drop these 'standards', which you say are so harmful, women wouldn't want to, because they benefit far too much from the fact that men essentially worship them.
Your article, and feminism in general, tries to deny reality by incorrectly claiming that gender is a social construct and has no inherent foundation to it. More than that, feminism is downright hostile to masculinity (and also femininity), to the point of wanting to erase them entirely, and wanting to live in an androgynous dystopia.

I would also challenge you to show me where exactly institutional male privilege exists, given that the wage gap myth has been debunked about a million times, and no serious economist accepts it.
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@veralynn ·
Thanks for the response, @in-vestments! The first point I brought up in this article:

>While it depends on how you define privilege, it is true that women have different privileges than men do.

So yes! It is correct that some of the bullet points you listed can be perceived as female privilege. However, your next point confuses me.

>But most of all, females have MASSIVE privilege in terms of sex. This is where feminists want to have their cake, and eat it too. They want to vilify men and masculinity for certain things, without wanting to give up the power that is the root cause of those things. Not that they could give it up anyway, as this state of affairs is biologically hard-wired, and not merely a social construct.

I do not agree that in general females have privilege in terms of sex. While I do agree that sex is exploitive, and there are many (women) that have monetized off of it, that does not by default mean that this is an example of female privilege. Many men have benefited from this, as well, and is not exclusive to women by any means.

Furthermore, "privilege" is not always a bad thing. For example, some privilege stereotypes suggest some people are smarter than others, drive better, cook better, etc... when you start considering just who has more advantages and disadvantages than whom, it gets really complicated. 

>women are more valuable than men. They can give birth and create life. Men are disposable, and have always been treated as disposable throughout history. Men hold women up on a pedestal; part of the dynamic of men being the hunter and women being the hunted, is that in being the hunted they are also the prize. Women use and abuse this sexual leverage every day without even realising it. Yet, they can't really be blamed for it, because that's just the way that nature is. If you don't think that women have power over men, that just reflects the fact that you are blind to your own privilege. Even if society could drop these 'standards', which you say are so harmful, women wouldn't want to, because they benefit far too much from the fact that men essentially worship them.

Here is where you really lose me.

This statement is incredibly hetero normative. Yes, biologically, we are different-- but your argument doesn't account for anyone outside of those constraints. It doesn't include anyone that is non-binary or non-straight. 

Personally, I don't believe that I am denouncing my privilege because I don't believe in "female privilege." The idea of female privilege suggests that women are atop the gender hierarchy. Privilege in general (as stated before) is a broad spectrum.

It is still in my opinion that social constructs surrounding gender and sex are harmful to both men and women. 

>Your article, and feminism in general, tries to deny reality by incorrectly claiming that gender is a social construct and has no inherent foundation to it. More than that, feminism is downright hostile to masculinity (and also femininity), to the point of wanting to erase them entirely, and wanting to live in an androgynous dystopia.

I (nor feminism) deny reality. Gender, in my opinion, is both biologically and socially constructed. If it were not socially constructed, stereotypes (in general) would cease to exist. These two subjects are not mutually exclusive.

I cannot argue with your personal experiences. If feminism has damaged your masculinity, that's not on me. However I don't define feminism as misandry, as I have stated in numerous articles, I do not downplay men's issues. I firmly believe that men and women should have equal social, economic, and political rights, and that is how I personally define feminism.

>I would also challenge you to show me where exactly institutional male privilege exists, given that the wage gap myth has been debunked about a million times, and no serious economist accepts it.

Here is how I define male privilege and institutional power.

Okay, so we have established that there are many facets to privilege (i.e. social status, accommodations, power, class, etc).  So what exactly are some examples of male privilege?

Here are some that resonated with me from Charles Clymer, [a male feminist](https://mic.com/articles/87485/an-open-letter-to-the-sexists-who-think-female-privilege-is-a-thing#.y64B2RFad)

>Male privilege is asserting that sexism might exist for both sexes but maintaining that menโ€™s problems are more pressing and immediate.

>Male privilege is being able to walk in public without being sexually harassed on a regular basis. 

>Male privilege is the ability to occupy any space and not be inundated with attempted flirting.

>Male privilege is turning on the television to watch programs that are nearly always male-produced.

>Male privilege is looking at other men put women on a pedestal and getting angry โ€ฆ at the women.

>Male privilege is believing you have a right to decide what a woman does with her body.


Thanks again for responding, I hope this clears a few things up.
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@in-vestments ·
"I firmly believe that men and women should have equal social, economic, and political rights"
Same! But I think you and I might have differing ideas about what constitutes 'equality'.

Regarding my opinion being heteronormative - you're right, I didn't address that aspect, because I didn't think it would add anything. While I am fine with homosexuality, let's not forget that 90%+ of interaction between people is heterosexual.

"Male privilege is asserting that sexism might exist for both sexes but maintaining that menโ€™s problems are more pressing and immediate."

I think both have problems that are pressing. And there are VERY few people, besides MRAs, that say male issues are more pressing and immediate. On the other hand,  it is now a common belief, not just in feminist circles but in wider society, that women's issues far outweigh men's issues.

"Male privilege is turning on the television to watch programs that are nearly always male-produced."

This is an artifact of history. Females have historically not been in as many leadership roles as men. This will correct itself over time - but I don't think gender quotas and affirmative action are the way to go. The pendulum has truly swung the other way here. If women don't want the stigma of being a diversity hire, they should support a meritocracy rather than gender quotas.

"Male privilege is believing you have a right to decide what a woman does with her body."
As a citizen, I can vote, which gives me a say in deciding what rights people have. Male legislators and politicians should not be banned from legislating on womens' issues. This would be an example of a lack of equal rights between the sexes.

"Male privilege is the ability to occupy any space and not be inundated with attempted flirting."
Attempted flirting is innocuous in the vast majority of cases, and is a direct byproduct of the fact that women have sexual privilege over men.
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@veralynn ·
Just because it doesn't affect you, does not mean it does not exist. Your argument at this point is just "it is what it is," which doesn't hold up very well.
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@somedude ·
Don't waste your time with Vera
She literally believes sexism against men does not exist and racism agains whites does not exists.

And for her, proof is some quote from a famous feminist.

Don't waste your time arguing with donkey, it will only kick you
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@somedude ·
These are the proofs vera uses to back her claims

"To argue for menโ€™s inclusion into womenโ€™s political and structural spaces is not only fundamentally heterosexist; it also serves an old nationalistic claim that women need to take care of men, no matter where they are located and or what they are engaged with." -Patricia McFadden


That is what she provides as evidence. Can you believe that!
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@veralynn ·
I don't see you providing better information. So, yeah, I'm gonna stick with that.
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