RE: Do you want the platform to be friendly to dolphins and minnows? Then @smooth and @abit are not your enemy! by stevescoins

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Viewing a response to: @timcliff/do-you-want-the-platform-to-be-friendly-to-dolphins-and-minnows-then-smooth-and-abit-are-not-your-enemy

· @stevescoins ·
$0.64
it is not good for minnows and dolphins that usually *don't* get whale hits to have those rare whale hits jerked out from underneath them.

I am not going to get a lot of big payouts, due to what I write about.  It's *good* for me to get an occasional whale hit, because otherwise, I will not make any return on my time investment here.

If the community really wants to feel good about giving each other penny payouts for each others' cat pics, that's one thing. *Hmm, that sounds a great deal more condescending than what I'm aiming at.*  There's nothing wrong with that, but if the community wants a diverse range of topics to be addressed here, then we can not rely on the community to reward contributors whose work does not interest or even offends the majority.

That is where the whale home run comes in.

Is the purpose of the experiment to see how the platform operated without whale influence?  Again, that is one thing.

>This decision must not have been easy. It was not selfish. They are going against the grain of the platform. They are sacrificing their own curation rewards that they could be getting by just continuing to upvote content. They are making a lot more enemies than friends.

I understand that.  I'm not mad at them personally.  But I have always disliked group punishment, which is what this is.

*Does a **good** ( a counter vote weighed upon the quality of the post, and the commitment the contributor has made to the community at large) whale downvote counter an **abusive** whale upvote, and vice versa?*...or are we looking forward to a time when whales aren't allowed to use their investment for their own interest AT ALL?

Do we really want to pull down any crab trying to climb out of the bucket?

This leads to another point.  Why would someone invest in the currency or the platform if their own curation ROI is minimal?
*Thanks for the $10,000... Mr. Investor...I hope you enjoy the same ROI that the guy that invested $100 makes*

If no one invests big money, we stay at a low market cap (Stephen Kendal addressed the dangers of  that a few days ago).

> It is a small fraction of the community that decides what gets rewarded vs. what doesn't for everyone else.

Which is kind of the point of the platform.  Invest to have a voice here...the more invested, the greater the voice.  The *hope* for minnows and dolphins is to contribute enough content to earn whale votes and *eventually* whale Steem Power.  Investment folks invest money, contributors invest time and effort.

>You may disagree with their method, but they are doing what whales are supposed to do with their stake. They are using it to direct the platform towards what they feel is best.

Understood, and I don't contest their right to do so; I just think that the experiment is doing more harm than good.  I also understand we are still in beta, and seeing what sticks to the wall right now.

Can we get a heads up, perhaps, on how long the experiment is going to run?  That might allay some of the hostility towards it.

*Disclosure time - I got smacked down on three posts today, which were written and "rewarded" before the experiment started.  Obviously that affects my view of the experiment ;>*
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vote details (42)
@stevescoins ·
lol, I just looked up an old comment of mine on dwblood's post about experimentation on the platform

>...and be prepared to take some hits to the rewards we expect while trying them out.

I was not prepared ;>
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@timcliff ·
$0.44
> it is not good for minnows and dolphins that usually don't get whale hits to have those rare whale hits jerked out from underneath them.

I agree. I think the preferred approach is for the remaining whales to scale back their voting below the 800 MV threshold. That would remove the need for downvotes. Until then, it is unfortunately a necessary evil if you buy into the idea that it is the right direction to head.
> That is where the whale home run comes in.

The same thing could be accomplished with a swarm of dolphin votes.

>  But I have always disliked group punishment, which is what this is.

The intention behind this is really not 'punishment'. Any interpretation along those lines is a misunderstanding on behalf of the person thinking it.

> are we looking forward to a time when whales aren't allowed to use their investment for their own interest AT ALL?

That is not the goal.

> Why would someone invest in the currency or the platform if their own curation ROI is minimal?

I don't think most investors are looking for returns through curation rewards. Investors want ROI through passive investment. Increasing the value of STEEM would be much better than dismal curation rewards on a currency that is continuing to lose value.

> The hope for minnows and dolphins is to contribute enough content to earn whale votes and eventually whale Steem Power. Investment folks invest money, contributors invest time and effort.

800 MV is still a lofty goal to aim for. Beyond that, the game changes. Very few people are going to get to that point unless they are very serious, and hopefully those investors are OK with the idea of capping their influence at a certain point for the good of the platform.

> I just think that the experiment is doing more harm than good.

It is too early to tell that IMO.

> Can we get a heads up, perhaps, on how long the experiment is going to run? That might allay some of the hostility towards it.

I don't have the answer to that.

> I got smacked down on three posts today, which were written and "rewarded" before the experiment started. Obviously that affects my view of the experiment

Understood. I appreciate that you are keeping an open mind about it though. Keep in mind - those of us who are dedicated to the platform want to see it succeed on a massive scale. If we get this right, the few dollars of coins you make off your posts today could be worth thousands in a few years. That is what we are aiming for. With that in mind, it is best to make decisions that are going to give us the best possibility to make it there.
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vote details (3)
@stevescoins ·
>The intention behind this is really not 'punishment'. Any interpretation along those lines is a misunderstanding on behalf of the person thinking it.

Agreed; that was definitely a bit of my emotion speaking there!

>I don't think most investors are looking for returns through curation rewards. Investors want ROI through passive investment. 

A good point I hadn't considered.

>The same thing could be accomplished with a swarm of dolphin votes.

I think that with my niche focus in contribution, it would be more in my own interest, and more likely that I get fewer but higher payout than swarms of "normal" Steemers...as if there are any "normal" Steemers ;>

> If we get this right, the few dollars of coins you make off your posts today could be worth thousands in a few years.

This is a key point. Right now, as we are in beta, *how the platform works is not even finalized*.  As contributors, we should be building our community involvement, building a following, and building our rep.

***

I *did* have an idea for a followup experiment, though
>Research Question
RQ: Would stevescoins become a benevolent Steemit tyrant if he controlled the bulk of Steem Power available ?
IV = the transference by whales of all available Steem Power to stevescoins, to the point that stevescoins has the ultimate voting power on the platform
DV = the level of stevescoin's benevolence in using that power to curate
Of course, for this experiment to work, whales will have to transfer all their Steem, Steem Power, and Steem Dollars to me ;>
We'll have to watch for behavior on my part that would demonstrate Acton's maxim after that!
Would I change my name to Stevus Augustus Tyrannis? ;>

Thanks for the response, Tim!
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@timcliff ·
Another experiment would be that if _all_ the users didn't vote for a day, then one user could cast a single vote and distribute all of the awards. I would be willing to volunteer as the guinea pig for this, if the community would like to try the experiment :)
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@snowflake · (edited)
> It's good for me to get an occasional whale hit, because otherwise, I will not make any return on my time investment here.

You are more likely to get a stable revenue coming from all your followers than just a few whales.
Less whale vote means more power to all your followers.

>If the community really wants to feel good about giving each other penny payouts for each others' cat pics, that's one thing.

steemit is only one site, there will be dozens of websites or more using the steem blockchain, if you want it to scale and allow everyone to participate it is absolutely necessary that people are able to send each others a few cents. There will be versions of facebook for steem where people only interact with their friends, those people should be able to send a few cents to each other without a whale upvoting them.

>but if the community wants a diverse range of topics to be addressed here, then we can not rely on the community to reward contributors whose work does not interest or even offends the majority.

What interest the majority is what is voted for by the majority.   What you describe is actually the old system where whale get to chose what the majority like.

>But I have always disliked group punishment, which is what this is.

Then why have you not been more vocal about the majority having no say in the platform, this is the biggest punishement of all. Or why didn't you speak up about whales autovoting a minority of authors while leaving the rest ignored? This is also a big punishment.

>or are we looking forward to a time when whales aren't allowed to use their investment for their own interest AT ALL?

Whales can use their investment for their own interest, just look at smooth and abit they are doing just that and smooth is up 50k usd today ! 

>Thanks for the $10,000... Mr. Investor...I hope you enjoy the same ROI that the guy that invested $100 makes

Someone with $10,000 makes a lot more curation than someone with $ 100

>If no one invests big money, we stay at a low market cap (Stephen Kendal addressed the dangers of that a few days ago)

People will start to invest money when they see value in it, like i said blockchain have only values if they empower people, if they reproduced the same old power structure model than we already have then a blockchain is worthless.
Curation is hardly an incentive for investors, curation earns you 20% annum, this is chump change for investors, they want 10-1000x return.

>The hope for minnows and dolphins is to contribute enough content to earn whale votes and eventually whale Steem Power

Minnows will never be able to be a whale by just posting, some users have been here for months, engaging and posting a lot and they were still not able to give 1 cents with their vote.
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@stevescoins ·
>Then why have you not been more vocal about the majority having no say in the platform, this is the biggest punishement of all. 

because individuals rewarded other individuals based upon personal value of contribution and  level of Steem Power (contribution to the platform), which is exactly what I took from the white paper.

having to cater to the majority when I have less than favorable viewpoints to the majority does not work for me (not just on Steemit, either)

I have no clue where people get the idea that mediocrity and conformity are worthy of reward, and that any other rewards for any other effort must be restricted based on the approval of the mundane.  *there is nothing **wrong** with the average, btw, but I don't see it as the greatest judge of value*

So the majority *wants* a community where they pass each other a few cents here and there?  the majority *doesn't* want a shot at the gold ring with every post?  


The community will lose original and creative contributors that way.  those people will seek other venues.

I won't discount that such a community could draw in investors; PT Barnum had some things right, after all.

It's just not the vision I took when I started here.

I get there is systemic abuse by some whales - I get that abuse is compounded by bots.  some of those points were addressed by Tim upthread.  there are methods of potentially dealing with that, and flattening the reward curve seems the most promising.  

the question for me is *how much* commitment to the platform does a user have to put in before their vote counts.  there are different ways to commit:
+ monetary investment (objective standard, but opens the platform up to the abuses we have seen)
+ quality posting (subjective valuation, especially for material the majority is hostile to)
+ time put in (both commenting and blogging, but again subjective in value)

We could look at some *objective* standards to measure posting by - length, references provided - but again, the problem is that the overall value is still *subjective* (not to mention that any standardized system can be gamed).  What that means is that the only objective measure of value to the platform I see is Steem Power...which can be bought.

So this is the question:  ***who determines how the reward pool is divvied up?***
+ People who have made an objective contribution to the platform and the currency?
+ The majority of people who have unequal levels of contribution to the platform

I want to return to the statement I made
>If the community really wants to feel good about giving each other penny payouts for each others' cat pics

that is a pejorative statement of course, made in anger.  some people *do* like looking at these and find value in these exchanges.  there is nothing wrong with that.

but if we make the standard of reward based upon the community of catlovers (metaphor alert), we are going to lose passion, contrarian view, and originality.

thanks for the response
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@anarchyhasnogods ·
"Thanks for the $10,000... Mr. Investor...I hope you enjoy the same ROI that the guy that invested $100 makes"
the guy investing 10k should get less than the 100 lol
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