RE: HF21: What Makes Steem Valuable? by yabapmatt

View this thread on steempeak.com

Viewing a response to: @lukestokes/hf21-what-makes-steem-valuable

· @yabapmatt ·
$0.28
I'm totally with you on the need to focus on value. The question I always like to ask is: "If you take away speculation, why would someone want to buy STEEM?"

My issue with the EIP (and the whole concept of rewarding content just for the sake of it) is that even if it works out perfectly - i.e. the highest quality posts always end up with the most rewards or however you define the perfect "proof of brain" system - I still don't see how there is value to owning STEEM or why I would want to buy any.

Maybe I'm a great curator and can earn a ton of curation rewards, but being able to earn more STEEM is not a reason to buy STEEM in itself. That presumes STEEM has some value to begin with which would make you want to earn more of it. Again, if you remove speculation which gives it its value right now, what is the reason to buy STEEM?

That's what I think all of our efforts should be focusing on - giving STEEM some actual value that doesn't just come from being able to earn more of it.
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vote details (10)
@amahovac93 · (edited)
$0.14
The reason i am buying Steem is cuz of its consistant passive income.
When the price rises the income would be greater as well.
I am not a writer so the curation rewards are a big thing for me and for the most people that arent writers.
I think i am the only one who thinks that a 50/50 reward distribution is a great thing.
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vote details (2)
@teamsteem ·
$0.09
> "I still don't see how there is value to owning STEEM or why I would want to buy any."

Are you implying that Steem has no value? Advertising makes it clear that people's eyeballs have value. Bringing people's eyeballs to Steem has value. 

People would buy Steem to increase their influence on people eyeballs and mind which are all very valuable to even the biggest corporations and governments.

The original whitepaper states:

> "The second principle is that all forms of capital are equally valuable. This means that those who contribute their scarce time and attention toward producing and curating content for others are just as valuable as those who contribute their scarce cash."

https://www.docdroid.net/0TuBFv2/steem-whitepaper.pdf
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vote details (1)
@smooth · (edited)
Eyeballs are largely a property of a web (or non-web) application, not a blockchain. The white paper and in many ways the whole Steem community both confuse the two in very significant ways. There are many logical leaps in these assumed models that are poorly supported if at all.

The only thing a blockchain can really ever do is pay people money (or tokens) according to a variety of rules. Apart from that, it is impotent to interact with the world in any way, eyeballs or otherwise.

I'm not convinced that people influence people's eyeballs by buying Steem, or at least the model by which they can do so has not been clearly explained in the white paper or otherwise. They can influence who gets paid, but that isn't the same thing at all.
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@lukestokes ·
For the reasons you mention here, I think my <a href="https://steemit.com/steem/@lukestokes/steem-is-not-steemit-steem-is-more-valuable-than-steemit">STEEM is not Steemit post</a> may have been one of the more important contributions I've made here. It seems the community (and investors/speculators trying to evaluate STEEM) are still stuck in this discussion without a resolution. The utility of STEEM (unlike most other cryptocurrency projects) is no longer based on wild speculative dreams. It's being demonstrated right now, and some <a href="https://steemit.com/discussion/@lukestokes/do-cryptocurrency-speculators-fear-utility">don't like that</a>.
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@jaki01 ·
$0.11
Why do you think 'eyeballs' wouldn't play a (big) role on a blockchain application like STEEM(it)?

Imagine for example I am writing an article about Steem Monsters (or any other business built on STEEM). Then I think it <em>does</em> matter if 50 people are reading it or 5000, if I assume that a certain percentage of the readers gets interested in Steem Monsters and decides to buy Steem Monsters cards with ... STEEM! :)

Apart from that, as many well informed poeple (including you) are so eager to test the planned HF changes, I would say "Yes, lets try it <em>now</em>, don't lose more precious time (apart from testing) and just see what happens!"
Then at least we cannot say we hadn't tried it out ... and then I really hope my scepticism proved to be wrong.
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@teamsteem ·
Steem curation can be displayed as a reflection of the most valuable content according to the shareholders. 

> The Steem community provides the following services to its members:
> 1. A source of curated news and commentary

This has value for the community, aspiring authors and curators. 

> I'm not convinced that people influence people's eyeballs by buying Steem, or at least the model by which they can do so has not been clearly explained in the white paper or otherwise. They can influence who gets paid, but that isn't the same thing at all.

There are clear incentives for the community to have a window on what are the best-paid posts and the more Steem someone has, the greater their influence on the platform/pay. 

> The third principle is that the community produces products to serve its members.

https://www.docdroid.net/0TuBFv2/steem-whitepaper.pd
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@marki99 ·
It's true that eyeballs are not property of a blockchain, but what if we make it one?

We can easily solve this problem in a centralized way.

Step 1: Steemit, Inc  stop using ads for personal profit.

Step 2: They start selling the ad spots by auction to the advertiser who is willing to burn the most STEEM. (They can even take a small cut if they are that greedy).

Step 3: Bidbots are obligated to burn at least 20% of the profit they make, if they don't, then  steemit, Inc downvotes them to death. This will create a good sink for STEEM. Centralized, yes, but effective. 

Step 4: Price of STEEM obviously falls less than it is now, and rises higher if helped by speculation. Steemit, Inc which holds millions of STEEM is now happy because they made more through increase in price than by selling stupid google adsense ads.

Step 5: Encourage Dapps like Dtube etc to use ad spots and sell them by auction to the highest bidding advertiser (again burn most of the steem). Those apps will help the price of steem, which will benefit them, benefit users, benefit Steemit, Inc. THIS IS THE STRONGEST NETWORK EFFECT EVER. 

Step 6: Dapps that help steem in absolutely no way are also downvoted to death. Centralized but effective, again.
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@gray00 ·
Another reason our coin has devalued so much is because the original whitepaper is such a piece of trash. Maybe we should re-write it with #freedom values developed by steemians not Dan, who btw powered down his steem already and fucked off.
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@teamsteem ·
The whitepaper has already been re-written.
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@nonameslefttouse · (edited)
$0.12
I could explain how 10 measly content producers could generate enough demand for consumers to buy 2.5 million STEEM.  The problem I have with explaining it is the fact I've tried what feels like a million different ways of saying it.  Maybe it's my wording?  I don't know.  I have these two recent posts:
https://steemit.com/steem/@nonameslefttouse/curators-hello-where-the-hell-are-you

https://steemit.com/steem/@nonameslefttouse/how-much-have-you-spent-on-entertainment-in-your-lifetime

I left a good comment somewhere else where I actually break down how 10 content producers could create so much demand.  I don't know what to say anymore and I'd have to hunt for that comment, and I'm so tired.  Writing it out again just seems like a waste.

*Edit: Found the second time I used that comment I speak of under this post
https://www.palnet.io/palnet/@midlet/on-50-50-for-steem-you-ll-never-beleive-what-the-real-problem-is

Combine the wisdom from everything I've said within these links, plus I can find more links, just read my entire blog and every comment; you'll eventually find some answers.
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vote details (3)
@lukestokes ·
Maybe what people need to see is an example of it actually working, not just talk about it. There's been a lot of talk over the last three years. Not many success story examples.

There's also the downvote UI issue I mentioned in my post. Any serious content producer wouldn't touch this place at all if they thought one person could come along and hide the content they worked so hard on.

What are your thoughts about that being a big part of the problem why serious content producers don't waste time with Steem?
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@nonameslefttouse ·
$0.09
> Maybe what people need to see is an example of it actually working, not just talk about it.

Did you even read that stuff?  Skim?  Couldn't grasp it?  Can't see how it already works?  Plenty of examples.  I used music in one, to be able to tap into a few billion.  Blog posts/magazines what's the difference?  So there's a few more billion.  The fact is people spend money on entertainment.  It's fact.  What examples are you missing?  Just look outside.

>There's also the downvote UI issue I mentioned in my post. Any serious content producer wouldn't touch this place at all if they thought one person could come along and hide the content they worked so hard on.
>
>What are your thoughts about that being a big part of the problem why serious content producers don't waste time with Steem?

So the other day, sometime this week, another top twenty witness insulted me.  Do you realize what you just said?  Since I reacted poorly to the insults earlier in the week, I've learned my lesson and will not snap.

Again.  Luke.  I want to stress the fact that I can respect you.  I have no issue with you as man, at all.  

> Any serious content producer wouldn't touch this place 

For nearly three years, I've been watching so many witnesses in top positions put their disconnect on display.  Do you truly know what goes on here?  

What makes you think I'm not a serious content producer?  Do you even realize you just insulted me?
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vote details (8)
@nonameslefttouse ·
$0.09
> Maybe what people need to see is an example of it actually working, not just talk about it.

This isn't what you say to someone who wants to invent the car.  "Well maybe if someone else invents the car, and I see it running, then I'll believe you."

Luke.  You've frustrated me beyond words today.  *Blah*.  That's all I got.
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vote details (8)
@yabapmatt ·
$0.05
So I just skimmed through your posts linked above (sorry I didn't have time right now to fully read them) but I really think you're on to something there. I would love to see an SP holding based subscription model for content.

Off the top of my head I'm thinking there could be a front-end where content creators can choose a subscription level, for example 100 SP, to have access to their content. So that means if I want access to that content I have to have at least 100 SP in my account and then when i click some button to access a particular piece of content it will "unlock" it by submitting an upvote from my account.

I think that would be really cool and, if done correctly, could actually incentivize a significant number of people to invest in Steem Power.
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vote details (2)
@monkeyjump ·
>Off the top of my head I'm thinking there could be a front-end where content creators can choose a subscription level, for example 100 SP, to have access to their content. So that means if I want access to that content I have to have at least 100 SP in my account and then when i click some button to access a particular piece of content it will "unlock" it by submitting an upvote from my account.

Patreon 2.0?
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@nonameslefttouse · (edited)
It's more about selling the idea to consumers.  It's already happening all around us, people just don't realize it.  

Every time an "established" content producer shows up, what happens?  People cheer because they have a large following.  The established content producer then starts churning out content, but their following doesn't come with them, and the ones who do, don't buy STEEM.  The established content producer forgot to secure their place here by explaining to their followers the benefits of purchasing STEEM and upvoting over the long term.  They still ask for "donations".  That money is thrown away and the consumer or follower must then donate again, and again, and again.  That's silly, when we have a platform like this.  Instead of donating, invest.  Then if that content producer isn't performing up to the consumers standards, they can have their money back, or go support someone else, without ever needing to throw money away in the form of donations, ever again.  Because these established producers fail to secure their future here, they often leave after only a few months, and the "benefit" of them simply showing up is nil.

You guys already get it.  If someone plays Splinterlands, and gets bored, they get their money back.  Aggroed said something along the lines of what I'm saying while promoting Splinterlands at a recent conference.  The consumer can have their money back, plus more, if they decide they're no longer interested in playing.  Games are part of the entertainment industry I speak of, so it's not hard to shift some of those billions over to your product.  It's already working.  People just don't realize it.

I'm not talking about a paywall, but I've written posts about what you're saying.

The whole point is to make the consumer realize the benefits of investing in content rather than buying it, or donating to content producers.  Offer incentives like the 50/50 rewards split to encourage more consumers to consume.  There should be far more consumers than content producers here, like in the entertainment industry, because that's how this works.

The fact is, people already spend the money.  STEEM can offer them a better deal, with any form of entertainment consumption.

This is about educating content producers as well.  There's a reason why you can't find content from an established producer describing to their following the things I'm trying to point out.  They didn't know, but if they did, everyone benefits.
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@hobo.media ·
Yeah, a delegation economy. I mentioned that idea in a post I wrote a while back. Think I called it "Steem Is Not Facebook, Steem Is LinkedIn" or something. The value I saw in Steem was its potential to create a delegation economy where you don't have to give money, just vote authority. 

That said, the haters of self-voting ruin that entire aspect of Steem, because without the 100% value of the upvote given to the company I don't think the numbers work.
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@lukestokes ·
The tokenomics of any project is the magic part. When it works, no one can really say why. When it doesn't work, everyone has an opinion why it failed. Ultimately, all financial value is a form of speculation on story telling. I think Steem as a blockchain and a cryptocurrency could tell some really compelling stories which investors and speculators will value. I think it's had this opportunity for quite some time. I hope that story develops. This post here is the primary reason I was so excited about Steem: <a href="https://steemit.com/steem/@dan/steemit-s-evil-plan-for-cryptocurrency-world-domination">Steemit's Evil Plan for Cryptocurrency World Domination</a>.

I still think it's possible.
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@yabapmatt ·
$0.08
> I think Steem as a blockchain and a cryptocurrency could tell some really compelling stories which investors and speculators will value

I agree with this, I just think the value is not in the "proof of brain" concept itself but rather in Steem being the platform to power other applications which may or may not use "proof of brain".

You say that doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is insanity, and that's how I see this EIP. We can mess with reward curves, percentages and voting pools all we want, but the end result will be the same. There is no magic formula that will change everyone's behavior and prevent automated systems from being able to "game the system" in a more optimal way than a human can.

Let the different apps deal with that and set up their reward systems how they think is best and we should focus on how building on the Steem blockchain can let them do that more quickly and easily than anywhere else. That's a story I know first hand that investors will value.
👍  
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@lukestokes ·
Funny, I was leaving <a href="https://steemit.com/hf21/@lukestokes/ptnmq9">this comment</a> at the same time you posted yours. I agree with you. SMTs and the work you're doing with Steem Engine may have been an important piece of this system's success from the beginning. Without it, there's no experimentation or growth. That's certainly one of the stories we were sold early on. The downside of that story is it may mean the STEEM token itself has no real value other than serving as one example among many of what may not actually work well economically compared to other cryptocurrencies.

Maybe cryptocurrencies, like healthy life, need to reproduce. I explored that a bit in this <a href="https://twitter.com/lukestokes/status/1134080636237549569">Twitter thread</a>.
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@eonwarped ·
If content is actually valued in a way that is perceived as fair/valuable, that is a big deal. It means that the inflation being printed isn't just dumb dilution and there is genuine value being generated and rewarded appropriately. It means that others will seek to come in and participate in the exchange of value for whatever it is that they are creating on this platform. Others can come and participate in continuing to contribute to rewarding value, and be rewarded in the process (the motivation to buy-- influence within a fair system of value generation). A positive feedback loop. 

And even if we aren't thinking along those lines, good content and engagement attracts users, and the platform's total networking power is what is valuable. If the system is perceived as fair then more people have reason to participate. Going the mass adoption route legitimizes the platform as a currency system in its own right.

I think there's a few holes in my argument / avenues for exploration here, but I can't quite figure it out right now.
👍  
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@yabapmatt ·
This is very abstract. I'm looking for a clear reason why a person/business/organization/etc would want to buy STEEM for something that isn't speculation or "because I can earn more STEEM".

For some examples, someone might say:
 - I bought Bitcoin because my local currency is being debased and the government confiscates precious metals.
 - I bought Ether because I want to use decentralized applications that run on the platform and that requires ETH to pay gas fees.
👍  
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@eonwarped ·
*I bought steem because I want to have more influence in the core social game (whose incentives have now been addressed to make things more fun)*

May not be the motivation for everyone, but it's there. And the usual benefits of steem vs others but who is really using those as reasons.

I'd argue the Bitcoin reason is also highly speculative.
👍  
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@schattenjaeger ·
No one buys bitcoin for reasons like that. Everyone buys bitcoin because it may go up in value and make them money.

This isn't rocket science.
👍  
👎  
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@stealthtrader ·
I see STEEM or mainly Steem Power as a way to be able to engage actively in one or more communities on the STEEM blockchain. Also yes that gives you more weight on rewards as well, but in general you are earning by helping build the blockchain and communities.
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@ats-david · (edited)
$0.07
>"If you take away speculation, why would someone want to buy STEEM?"

This is something I've been asking for a long time and aside from curation rewards, there isn't much. 

But for two years, I've been talking about advertising, revenue, and profit-sharing for website/interface owners. I even spoke with Ned about this two years ago and he had zero interest in it at all. Then he realized that capital appreciation from the "ninja-mine" can't pay the bills forever...or even a couple of years. 

The added value that most people are looking for can and should be added by businesses running *on* the chain, not the chain itself. Taking my advertising example:

1. Interface owner implements advertising.
2. A percentage of revenue is distributed to *their* active users (people who are logged in and interacting with the blockchain via their particular interface). 
3. Revenue is distributed based on the STEEM Power of those users. 
4. Users can opt-in or opt-out to the advertising and revenue sharing. Non-users have no options.

What would this do for the blockchain? First, it would entice visitors of those interfaces to create an account in order to turn off ads or to opt into the revenue sharing. Second, it would entice users to purchase STEEM and power it up, or hold much of the SP that they accumulate in order to compound future ROI. 

What would it do for the interface owners? It would entice more people to use *their* interface, which would increase their ad revenue.

What else could it do? It could attract better content creators who want to get their work in front of more users...the user base that is potentially growing due to the better incentives. 

Worried about large stakeholders soaking up all of the shared profits? You can cap the distribution. 

Want to further entice popular content creators to use your interface? Share another percentage of ad revenue with those popular creators through an entirely different ad program. 

Concerned that your site is just being gamed by people looking for profits? Congratulations! That's what basic human behavior essentially is: *economical.* That's the foundation of commerce. And if you can get some steady commerce going on your site with legit businesses, value will continue to grow. 

This is the kind of thing that many of our "developers" can do right now. And there's no hard fork necessary to do it either. They don't have to wait on anybody at all to get started. What are these interface owners doing instead? How are they making their money as website *businesses?* It seems most people don't realize that running a social media site is a business operation, first and foremost. They should start treating it as such.

We're not going to have much luck finding better value or more investment in(to) the Steem blockchain by simply hoping that our scheme of giving away inflation tokens will suddenly see huge demand shifts. There's only so much you can do with the internal blockchain economics - which have been severely broken and won't be fixed by the EIP alone. We need more developers focused on actual business models and adding value to this blockchain via those businesses and we need to give less attention (and money) to those simply looking to milk inflation rewards via vote/delegation buying and renting schemes or with outright ponzi/scam "projects."

For the record: I don't believe the SPS will give us different results, as much of the voting will be done by the same people currently allocating rewards.
👍  , , ,
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@ocrdu ·
Making STEEM the go-to currency for illegal international arms trading, that could work. Or has that application already been taken?
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@ats-david ·
Let's try it and see how it goes!
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@marki99 ·
@yabapmatt I hope you read y reply because the answer to your question is very simple. 

Basically what you are looking for is to give STEEM a sink. A strong sink that makes it scarce and valuable.  

USE EYEBALLS.

Content (written, audio, visual, etc...) and games bring users. People pay to get ads in front of those people. On the steem network, they pay bidbots to do that. 

USE BIDBOTS TO BURN STEEM. 

You are the father of bidbots. You obviously thought of this. Delegators to bidbots wouldn't mind cutting their APR by 2% if it meant that the steem was burned instead. And people who promote their posts to get them on rending wouldn't mind getting a bit less in upvote value from bidbots. 

BURN 20% of all bidbot profits. This is the best sink steem can get. You have the influence to convince the whole steem ecosystem to follow this rule. If a bidbot doesn't burn, then mark him as unhelpful to STEEM on steembottracker.com.
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@smooth · (edited)
> My issue with the EIP (and the whole concept of rewarding content just for the sake of it) is that even if it works out perfectly - i.e. the highest quality posts always end up with the most rewards or however you define the perfect "proof of brain" system - I still don't see how there is value to owning STEEM or why I would want to buy any

I'm not going to entirely disagree as I've been making this exact same argument since 2016 as many are well aware, especially regulars on the old steemit.chat #price channel.

However, I do want to make a counterargument which is that EIP and better voting generally may allow stakeholders to coordinate to pay out not necessarily the 'highest quality' content (which is a poorly defined concept in any case) but on content which brings value to Steem. This can happen in many different ways including:
1. Being externally popular (the best example of this I can easily recall is Dan's early post "Will the DAO be DOA" which was covered in popular media when The DAO was in the new first during its enormous fundraise and then during  its hack. The steemit.com post was widely linked and discussed and probably helped give Steem a big early boost in attention and growth)
2. Being part of a process that evidences virtuous cycle growth, for example, externally-successful influencers with an audience being successful on Steem and inspiring more to join in turn
3. Contributing directly to growth by attracting users, but this only works if churn is also under control. This probably requires there being enough other "stuff" of interest on the platform/ecosystem beyond just free money, which most new users won't get much of anyway.
4. Supporting organic Steem influencers who develop their brand and attract a new audience to Steem.

There are probably others.

I don't know whether EIP will actually do this and if so I doubt it will do it right away, but it is possible that a stronger voting system will eventually allow more of the reward pool to be directed to these sorts of specifically value-adding content and not just content for its own sake or even just 'quality' content.
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@lukestokes ·
$0.11
I love the idea of rewarding highly shared content referenced in news outlets. I'd even support using SPS funds to do it, if we had to. If someone writes something that goes viral on the Internet and is highly linked to which brings more people to a Steem frontend interface, I think that's something we should reward and encourage more of.
👍  
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@smooth · (edited)
Do that with upvotes and lack of downvotes. Start upvoting based on actual _value to Steem_ (external exposure is one great example but not the only one) and not just content that looks pretty but does little to nothing to help us (we could use 'likes' or some such to express recognition apart from pay) and downvote where value to Steem is absent but people upvoted it anyway.

In a few cases it might happen too late (after 7 days), in which case I would agree with the SPS idea of an exposure bonus fund or such.
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@schattenjaeger ·
>I still don't see how there is value to owning <STEEM or why I would want to buy any.

>but being able to earn more STEEM is not a reason to buy STEEM in itself.

Why not, though? Let's say it's 2016 again, there are no bidbots, and the only way to earn STEEM is through upvotes on steemit.com. Let's say there's a culture on the site where users who buy and power up are rewarded. Why wouldn't this culture encourage buying?
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curator_payout_value0.000 SBD
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root_title"HF21: What Makes Steem Valuable?"
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