RE: Challenge my current Hypothesis: Banning things does not achieve the stated goal... by dwinblood

View this thread on steempeak.com

Viewing a response to: @dksart/re-dwinblood-challenge-my-current-hypothesis-banning-things-does-not-achieve-the-stated-goal-20171128t032924401z

· @dwinblood ·
>Since you were talking about banning guns, I would assume the goal of the ban would be to reduce gun related deaths. All you would have to do to see if that would work, is look at the per capita gun related deaths of countries around the world. If you compare USA and Australia for example, per capita gun related deaths in Australia are much lower than USA. You want less gun related deaths in the USA pass similar laws to what Australia has.

This also depends on how you compare it.    We could compare car related deaths too and I suspect the U.S. will have more per capita than many countries too.

They often lump suicides in that.   If a person is going to commit suicide they have made a decision.  A gun is a tool.   It did not control itself and kill them.

People should be able to choose to do what they want and be responsible for the outcomes.   If they are acting against another then that is when we should have laws related to property damage, assault, murder, etc.     We already generally have laws for those things.  Banning tools, substances, and literature doesn't stop that.

Gun Control also doesn't stop criminals intent on using guns in crime.   It only impacts regular people.   I don't need to compare Australia (another country)... look at my starting image and its reference to Chicago.

That is true.   Strictest Gun Control in the nation and it has the highest gun related deaths in the nation.   Gun control won't do shit except put non-criminals into further danger from criminals.    I mean unless you plan on putting little shacks out in front of everyone's house and manning them with police.   Otherwise someone that is a criminal comes at you with a gun calling 911 is not likely to save you and prevent deaths if that is the intent.   If you have a gun to defend yourself and others with that has been PROVEN in many cases to be all the difference in the world.   Banning impacts EVERYONE and treats everyone like potential criminals instead of focusing on the people that actually commit a crime.
👍  
properties (23)
post_id18,892,569
authordwinblood
permlinkre-dksart-re-dwinblood-challenge-my-current-hypothesis-banning-things-does-not-achieve-the-stated-goal-20171128t034201968z
categorychallenge
json_metadata"{"app": "steemit/0.1", "tags": ["challenge"]}"
created2017-11-28 03:42:00
last_update2017-11-28 03:42:00
depth2
children5
net_rshares4,127,577,871
last_payout2017-12-05 03:42:00
cashout_time1969-12-31 23:59:59
total_payout_value0.000 SBD
curator_payout_value0.000 SBD
pending_payout_value0.000 SBD
promoted0.000 SBD
body_length2,038
author_reputation223,300,085,257,919
root_title"Challenge my current Hypothesis: Banning things does not achieve the stated goal..."
beneficiaries[]
max_accepted_payout1,000,000.000 SBD
percent_steem_dollars10,000
author_curate_reward""
vote details (1)
@dksart ·
$0.06
I think you are misunderstanding, I am looking at mathematical statistics, it is a mathematical fact that the per capita gun related deaths in Australia are lower than what they are in the USA.  Obviously there is a reason for it, what do you think it is?
👍  
properties (23)
post_id18,893,166
authordksart
permlinkre-dwinblood-re-dksart-re-dwinblood-challenge-my-current-hypothesis-banning-things-does-not-achieve-the-stated-goal-20171128t035211316z
categorychallenge
json_metadata"{"app": "steemit/0.1", "tags": ["challenge"]}"
created2017-11-28 03:52:09
last_update2017-11-28 03:52:09
depth3
children4
net_rshares22,555,943,290
last_payout2017-12-05 03:52:09
cashout_time1969-12-31 23:59:59
total_payout_value0.044 SBD
curator_payout_value0.014 SBD
pending_payout_value0.000 SBD
promoted0.000 SBD
body_length255
author_reputation21,053,937,692,175
root_title"Challenge my current Hypothesis: Banning things does not achieve the stated goal..."
beneficiaries[]
max_accepted_payout1,000,000.000 SBD
percent_steem_dollars10,000
author_curate_reward""
vote details (1)
@dwinblood · (edited)
It could be several reasons.   Correlation is not always causation.   My point was that you are also comparing two different countries.    We have gun control in Chicago which is IN this country and it has the most gun related deaths EACH MONTH out of anywhere else in the country.

I also don't really care about statistics in this case as it's pretty easy to get statistics to show what you want to support your agendas by framing it.   I do not believe one side fits all.   I can't find cases where that works either.    It also does not tell us what is going on with black market instances in that country, yet again it is potentially quite different there.   I'd need to research the culture and history of the country.

A gun is a tool.   A car is a tool.     There are going to be countries with higher per capita deaths with cars as well, and it may or may not be due to laws.   It also depends upon how broad you are willing to leave your statistics.    Do you as I said include suicides?   Is that just violent murders?   It is relevant.    How many of them stopped further violence?

With cars do you include people that were driving without a license into the stats.   Why is that relevant?   They are not supposed to be driving without a license anyway so they are already operating outside the law.    This same type of situation also occurs in relation to guns.   Often the people involved in these things are not acquiring guns by legal means.   So they are already outside of the laws.

Banning does not stop people from getting things.    Some recent activities the person made the gun themselves which is not something terribly complicated to learn to do.   Neither recent event Las Vegas or Texas Church Shooting would have been stopped by gun control.   There is also STRONG evidence the Texas Shooting would have been FAR worse if we had gun control as the guy that stopped him and pursued him was not the police, they were late to the scene after that church was shot up and the guy had a truck full of guns and seemed to be potentially heading towards an even larger church.   That guy shouldn't have had any of those anyway he already had things that HAD the military reported it like they are supposed to he would not have been able to get those guns legally.    They failed to report what they needed to report, so the guy went through background checks and all of that but no flags came up due to the military not reporting what they should have.

Yet, that is just one case.    That one is a good illustration of what can happen if you pass laws which will take guns away from people for self defense, and really doesn't do anything to stop criminals already planning to break laws.    It creates a nice victim pool.

EDIT: If you are banning a tool, and there is a correlation such as your stats then since those tools are not self propelled and automated I would suspect CULTURE has a larger factor than the tool itself.    Depending upon the culture removing one tool may just move the stats to similar occurrences with different tools.    Yet, they don't usually go into this level of detail in such agenda driven statistics.   The pro-gun crowd can do this too.

So ultimately you could play the stats game with banning books, banning drugs, and banning whatever you want.

I don't know of a case where IF I AM AWARE OF IT ON A LARGE DEGREE the banning does not lead to power and corruption within the government, and by extension further problems without actually seeming to stop what the ban was intended for.

Having not spent any time in Australia many of the factors I'd know in the U.S. outside of just the reported statistics are not things I'd be immersed in and know about.
properties (22)
post_id18,947,159
authordwinblood
permlinkre-dksart-re-dwinblood-re-dksart-re-dwinblood-challenge-my-current-hypothesis-banning-things-does-not-achieve-the-stated-goal-20171128t165417772z
categorychallenge
json_metadata"{"app": "steemit/0.1", "tags": ["challenge"]}"
created2017-11-28 16:54:18
last_update2017-11-28 17:01:36
depth4
children3
net_rshares0
last_payout2017-12-05 16:54:18
cashout_time1969-12-31 23:59:59
total_payout_value0.000 SBD
curator_payout_value0.000 SBD
pending_payout_value0.000 SBD
promoted0.000 SBD
body_length3,716
author_reputation223,300,085,257,919
root_title"Challenge my current Hypothesis: Banning things does not achieve the stated goal..."
beneficiaries[]
max_accepted_payout1,000,000.000 SBD
percent_steem_dollars10,000
@dksart ·
$0.06
Sure there could be infinite reasons why some things happen and some dont, but everything you are talking about here are hypothetical scenarios, I am providing a mathematical fact that the US has more gun related deaths than other countries.  If your goal is to reduce gun related deaths in the USA than the logical thing to do is look at what other countries are doing who do not have as many gun related deaths.  If you are fine with the amount of gun related deaths in the USA than nothing needs to change.


https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/10/2/16399418/us-gun-violence-statistics-maps-charts

This is something that should be decided by democracy, if the majority of the population wants more/less laws that is what should happen because that is how democracy works (unfortunately democracy does not work when gov politicians have been bought and paid for).

You keep bringing up Chicago as having tough gun control laws, I am not sure where you are getting this information from, but that is not true at all http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/opinion/editorial/bs-ed-1006-alternative-fact-20171005-story.html the only difference in Chicago is that Cook County has a ban on assault weapons, but you can drive an hour in any directions out of Chicago and buy an assault weapon.  Every other law is the same as other cities.
👍  
properties (23)
post_id18,975,943
authordksart
permlinkre-dwinblood-re-dksart-re-dwinblood-re-dksart-re-dwinblood-challenge-my-current-hypothesis-banning-things-does-not-achieve-the-stated-goal-20171129t000552397z
categorychallenge
json_metadata"{"app": "steemit/0.1", "links": ["https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/10/2/16399418/us-gun-violence-statistics-maps-charts", "http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/opinion/editorial/bs-ed-1006-alternative-fact-20171005-story.html"], "tags": ["challenge"]}"
created2017-11-29 00:05:48
last_update2017-11-29 00:05:48
depth5
children2
net_rshares22,562,736,584
last_payout2017-12-06 00:05:48
cashout_time1969-12-31 23:59:59
total_payout_value0.044 SBD
curator_payout_value0.015 SBD
pending_payout_value0.000 SBD
promoted0.000 SBD
body_length1,338
author_reputation21,053,937,692,175
root_title"Challenge my current Hypothesis: Banning things does not achieve the stated goal..."
beneficiaries[]
max_accepted_payout1,000,000.000 SBD
percent_steem_dollars10,000
author_curate_reward""
vote details (1)