Viewing a response to: @mckeever/re-funbobby51-re-marcuspulis-firearms-in-the-hands-of-a-philosopher-20180808t222143982z
>Each man owns himself, therefore any claim of ownership over another human being is immoral and a gross violation of natural law. There you have it, billions of people are not remotely free despite natural law, natural law, like any other law, only matters to the extent it is enforced, who enforces natural law? Throughout most of human history most people were slaves, not tax slaves or wage slaves, they were slave slaves, and we seem to have avoided self destruction thus far. Only a lucky few have enjoyed the rights that Americans enjoy.
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America was founded on the enforcement of natural law, hence the declaration of independence. But slowly the populous has become ignorant of the rights of self-ownership that so many have fought and died for. And quote Jefferson 
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Exactly, those only became actual rights in America when the government codified them. Although if you look the founders as British citizens at the time had all the rights granted by the British Bill of Rights, like the right to self defense. Our bill of rights is derivative of that. America was founded by men who were well read in Enlightenment philosophy.
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It is not clear what your stance is, but it sounds like you think rights did not exist until the people who didn't have them fought for them through the form of a government. And are you saying that people fought for rights they didn't know existed until there was government? "That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it." But how did they know they know they had the right to abolish government if it was not granted to them?
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Funbobby, Even with the most tyrannical government, natual law cannot be avoided. Like Locke pointed out, oppression causes revolution, without it there would be no reason to overthrow a system. Again, by denying someone their rights the course of events dictate eventually that the perpetrator has forfeited their own right. A good example that comes to mind is the assassination of Julius Caesar. When he began defying natural rights and became a dictator the responce from the Senate was the course that followed. Natural rights such as the right to self defense is not made valid by the 2nd ammendment. The entire bill of rights was a compromise. Because people such as Patrick Henry and other anti-federalists were losing the debate at the time, and the populace was moving towards a central government, they found allies in trying to uphold natural rights within the Constitution, and presto they codified them. Natural Rights preexist any document or government. If rights were dictated by governments as your arguements suggest, than Stalin was perfectly in his rights to starve to death millions in Ukraine. That arguement is madness.
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Bingo.
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Oh right, who can forget when Stalin was prevented from killing millions of people by their natural rights, those work great!
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There are billions of Chinese and Indian people and Europeans who are not having a revolution and don't believe in free speech or the right to bear arms. "Natural Rights preexist any document or government. " Nope the idea is a product of the Enlightenment. Stalin was perfectly in his rights to starve to death millions in Ukraine. Of course he was, that example is good proof that your natural rights are worthless, all those Ukrainians had natural rights didn't they? What good did that do them? Did he get in any trouble for it? Did he get arrested? He should have been punished if violating natural rights mattered, right?
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All I can say is that your arguements put you on the same side as tyrants like Stalin, Mao, Polpot, and Hitler. Mine put me in the company of John Locke, Thomas Jefferson, and Patrick Henry. I hope you are proud of the group that shares your opinion, I certainly am proud of mine. They may not be perfect but they side with life, freedom, and respect for the self ownership of the individual.
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