RE: Qualia - Everyone Sees The World Differently by aakom

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· @aakom ·
$0.02
In ref to both @oendertuerk and @hartnell, before venturing towards an ultimate truth, it needs to be precisely worded - reminds me of the computer in Hitchhiker's Guide. So, if all we experience is our mind, is there any state of mind that is universal, something we can all agree upon? This is not dissimilar to Descartes' meditation, although the answer is different.

There is a state of pure awareness (or consciousness) devoid of any other experience. It is the ground state of consciousness. We don't usually notice it as our attention tends to focus on the phenomena generated by the mind, be they deemed external or internal (the mind doesn't seem to care). It has various names, depending on the language of the texts, but the definitions show such words to be synonyms, and hence the experiences to be the same.

How can one experience a kind of stateless state? What is interesting is that the state has no phenomena that one can point to, and yet the memory of the state remains - it is not a memory-less sleep, it is a conscious state. Indeed, if I was more skillful, and diligent, I should be able to extend such periods of consciousness - so-called sleep yoga claims to have techniques to achieve this.

When one comes out of the pure state, there is an admixture of our standard conscious mental activity with the ground state still present. Mental activities appear with a certain detachment. Without practice, the ground state fades back into the background, yet can be accessed - and it will always be the same state.
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@oendertuerk ·
And yet all are in a different state, in which each one moves his reality. 
is the highest state the truth? who determines the truth?
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@aakom ·
To give an analogy, a computer can run many programs, yet its kernel, the heart of the OS, is the same. It can even be thought of as the interface between machine and experience, between biology and experience, for us.

Truth? That depends on the question. The answers to many questions do not come in words but in experiences. Hence the fascination with things such as Zen koans, which make no sense unless you are inside having the experience.
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vote details (1)
@hartnell ·
I wanted to make it clear why I upvoted and make a comment on what appears to be a habit of yours that runs counter to it.


>  Truth? That depends on the question.

Brilliant! That's probably the most succinct, accurate and rational thing that any one of us have said on this post.  

>  The answers to many questions do not come in words but in experiences. Hence the fascination with things such as Zen koans, which make no sense unless you are inside having the experience.

Why try to sound smart when what you've just said is actually really smart?

Boggles the mind.
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@hartnell · (edited)
@aakom

> In ref to both @oendertuerk and @hartnell, before venturing towards an ultimate truth, it needs to be precisely worded - reminds me of the computer in Hitchhiker's Guide.

Two points for the HHGTG reference. I agree, it's a damn good idea to define the problem before attempting to solve it. With that said...

> So, if all we experience is our mind, is there any state of mind that is universal, something we can all agree upon

Define mind.
Define state of mind.
Make sure to define them definitively. ;)

> This is not dissimilar to Descartes' meditation, although the answer is different.

If you mean "Cognito, ergo sum" then that would be a statement, not a meditation. Sure, it's a statement that summarizes the conclusion of a long chain of thought but unless you know that chain of thought and how that conclusion was reached, then it's mmmm tricky. In other words, it's about as useful as 42 without the question. 

> There is a state of pure awareness (or consciousness) devoid of any other experience.

There is a BDSM squirrel that plays blackjack with it's friends deep in the forest of zanzabar. If you don't get my sarcasm, allow me translate: "Sure, if you say so."

> It is the ground state of consciousness.

Uh huh. hmmm..... go on...

> We don't usually notice it as our attention tends to focus on the phenomena generated by the mind, be they deemed external or internal (the mind doesn't seem to care).

Hmm. This is overly complex and getting pretentious.

>  It has various names, depending on the language of the texts, but the definitions show such words to be synonyms, and hence the experiences to be the same.

Full on pretentiousness achieved.

> How can one experience a kind of stateless state? 

One could imagine that a bullet to the head might do the trick.

Then again, I have to admit, that two other possibilities are possible here:

1. "stateless state" is pseudo-profound bullshit.
2. "stateless state" is something you don't really understand.

> What is interesting is that the state has no phenomena that one can point to, and yet the memory of the state remains - it is not a memory-less sleep, it is a conscious state. Indeed, if I was more skillful, and diligent, I should be able to extend such periods of consciousness - so-called sleep yoga claims to have techniques to achieve this.

It seems to me that you're just aping understanding of what happens when you enter a state without ready associations to reference it by while in other states. I'm not sure where you get the idea that there's something called "sleep yoga", especially since sleep is a primary metaphor in esoteric schools. Waking consciousness is regarded as a form of sleep. The point is to wake the fuck up.

(15 minutes of research later)

Well dammit, my first impression in the above paragraph was wrong.

What you're talking about is "yoga nidra",  which, from the very first sentence of the wikipedia article the plot thins considerably. 

> Yoga nidra (Sanskrit: योग निद्रा) or yogic sleep) is a state of consciousness between waking and sleeping, like the "going-to-sleep" stage, typically induced by a guided meditation.

In other words, it's hypnosis. Since a lot of people fear hypnosis,  hypnotists (points to self[1]) have a practice of referring to a "talking induction" as "guided meditation." 'Cause that's what guided mediation is: an induction and reading of some kind of script to the hypnotee.

If you're really into this, you would do better to find some crazy local individual who geeks out on this sort of thing to hypnotize you or otherwise just to look into self-hypnosis. Better yet, learn hypnosis yourself. It's not that difficult and really really fun if you learn from the likes of Richard Bandler, Major Mark, and Ross Jeffries. Especially Ross Jeffries.  :) 

[1] This is a hypnotist joke you won't get. I've included it to entertain myself as the butt of the joke is myself. :)
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@aakom ·
You assume too much yet know so little.
So, tell me, what is the deepest possible state according to hypnosis and what does it feel like?
In your own words, of course, and from experience, if possible.
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@hartnell ·
> You assume too much yet know so little.

> So, tell me,

 Look, I was just giving you a heads up, and point out where there's some good fun the be had,  you can take it or leave it. If you want to ignore it because you think you're somehow special, you're welcome to do that, too.

I'm  a pragmatic guy. 

> what is the deepest possible state according to hypnosis and what does it feel like?

There's no such thing as "according to hypnosis." Hypnotism isn't some kind of authority that makes definitive statements about itself that all the little padowans must believe.

Using the "deep" metaphor to describe hypnosis is a pet peeve of many a hypnotist, so there's a clue for you right there.

> In your own words, of course, and from experience, if possible.

I can't answer that, as asked. The best answer I can give is: hypnosis feels however the hypnotist wants it to feel. 
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