RE: Understanding Steem's Economic Flaw, Its Effects on the Network, and How to Fix It. by trafalgar

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· @trafalgar · (edited)
$0.25
Yes I remember you were broadly in favor of 2/3 when I first mentioned these solutions in chat around 7 months ago. I'm glad we agree on this much

I doubt I can convince you of the benefits of slight superlinear, but I'm going to try. 

I feel that it's the centerpiece, or at least as important as the other two measures listed here. At the heart of what favors content indifferent voting in terms of profit maximization is that vote/sp is identical (roughly speaking) irrespective of where it's cast. Variation in reward for any given sp weighted vote is crucial to making it more difficult to mindlessly price votes for bid bots, favor good curation more, and generally helps content reflective voting behavior to out-compete content indifferent behavior.

It has the added benefit of forcing all profitable posts/comments into the light as rewards will likely need to be substantially high before they're 'profitable'. Similarly, it'll likely get rid of a decent amount of profit based comment spam as low payouts are generally not worth the vote invested. 

The curve can really be quite mild, maybe lower than n^1.3. It can even have a linear tail to prevent some form of large scale collusion among whales to pile on etc. Remember, ultimately the idea is to come up with a set of economic incentives that will allow individual voting behavior that provides the greatest returns to be not content agnostic, and therefore, add value to the protocol by having it actually function as a content discovery platform. I feel that with only greater downvote incentives alone in the form of X% separate downvotes, it won't be sufficient as there's still a risk to casting a downvote but no direct individual reward. Enticing it further would probably have the downsides of toxicity outweigh it's benefits.

'The idea is to use just enough of these measures...' I should clarify my statement here. I meant as most potential measures (superlinear, downvote incentives, higher curation) all have a cost, it's perhaps preferable to use a combination of different measures to a smaller extent than fewer measures to a greater extent. I can't prove it outright but I think that's less costly to the system overall. 

I think for projects that truly require a linear token, that's the perfect place for SMTs.

You're one of the most intelligent witnesses Smooth, and I wish we saw more eye to eye on this. Again I'll take 2/3 over nothing. But I just can't shake the feeling that if we keep linear, it'll always be an avenue that's subject to abuse no matter what other economic disincentives we build around it.
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@smooth · (edited)
Downvoting (if not crippled) already introduces the necessary non-linearity in my view. It functions as a form of consensus-finding much like superlinear, without the flaw that larger stakeholders (and/or larger groups of stakeholders) can collude to take more than their fair share. It does exactly what you say in terms of e.g. bidbots because bidbot posts that attract downvotes would lose a share of their rewards and NOT receive a linear payout.

It is much less subject to abuse (including by bidbot-like schemes, which could easily gain under superlinear) because you can only push rewards non-lienarly _away_ from non-consensus payouts, but can't push them _toward_ yourself (directly or indirectly). 

I feel downvoting is just a better solution to this exact problem, but if it is given a serious try and doesn't work then I'd be more open to reconsidering superlinear. Though, still, I'm skeptical it would just introduce/reintroduce more problems. Perhaps a bit more superlinearity at the low end (to prevent dust farming) that transitions to linear as the rewards become significant would be okay.

> I think for projects that truly require a linear token, that's the perfect place for SMTs.

I'd actually say the opposite. Superlinearity with stake weighting will always be perceived as unfair (and for good reason in my view). In the case of SMTs with uniform voting, superlinearity could be a better fit (though I still expect would be abused). Likewise SMTs might serve some subcommunity where the cultural context makes the lack of 'fairness' not a problem or even an advantage (pure speculation here).
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vote details (1)
@snubbermike ·
$0.24
The downvoting feature should be disabled - not strengthened.  

Work on better reward schemes, not arbitrary punishment features.
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@ats-david ·
A downvote isn’t β€œpunishment.” Some people may use it that way, but it is essentially just a disagreement from one stakeholder on how rewards have been allocated by other stakeholders.
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@smooth · (edited)
$0.15
There probably isnt a better reward scheme that doesn't involve downvotes. Even with downvotes it isn't clear there is a scheme that will work well, but that is the best chance.

Anything that lets people push rewards _toward_ themselves and/or their conspirator is likely exploitable. Downvoting works because it doesn't allow doing that, only pushing rewards _away_ from a particular point and scattering them to the rest of the community.

To strengthen the system we must weaken the individual actors.

On the matter of disabling downvoting, I had an idea to do exactly that, but not for the reason you probably would like. My idea is to disable downvotes and watch the system collapse (worse than it already is). Then, perhaps, people would learn an increased respect for the value of downvotes.
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vote details (3)
@trafalgar · (edited)
$0.44
I do support free downvotes (what reggae said in chat is what we meant by 10% free downvotes, although he calls for 20%)

But I can give you a fairly good reason of why I think X% free downvotes (X% separate pool) itself is insufficient

Recall that I believe we're in this mess because under the current economic incentives, content indifferent voting out competes content reflective voting in terms of rewards.

Now how would the rational selfish actor behave with these new free downvotes? Well rationally, they're not rewarded for them regardless of how accurate they are and open themselves to retaliation, which have received a concomitant reduction in cost. You may argue that it's in everyone's best interest for us to use our free downvotes wisely, but if we could cooperate like that, we could make linear and 25% curation work as it's to everyone's detriment that we all engage in content indifferent behavior. Yet here we are.

Essentially, downvotes alone won't get you there because you're not rewarded individually more for being an outstandingly accurate downvoter like you would be when in comes to upvoting (in a functional ideal curation economy). That is to say, downvoting won't get you the price discovery features that upvoting brings which is what it would take for your above statement to hold true.

In practice, I don't think people are as rigid as I just outlined, and I think downvotes would for the most part be used wisely especially if we enable them to be delegated. The cost of retaliation would generally be a lot lower than, say forfeiting 75% of your returns, which is what the price of good voting behavior is currently. That's why I support them with other measures.

Alone, they're insufficient, with 50% curation, maybe it'll work out, with slight superlinear, the chances are best.

Still, the benefits of slight superlinear cannot be understated, and I feel its detriments are exaggerated. People are really suffering from n^2 PTSD. n^1.2-n^1.3 should give us most of the benefits at a fraction of the cost. To say that all forms of superlinear are bad because n^2 didn't work out is like concluding all forms of inflation is crazy because 100% hyperinflation was mental.

Overall 2/3 might work. But I truly feel most are wrong with respect to the benefit/cost ratio of slight superlinear. Without which the numbers probably need to be pushed a little higher...
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@smooth · (edited)
> You may argue that it's in everyone's best interest for us to use our free downvotes wisely, but if we could cooperate like that, we could make linear and 25% curation work as it's to everyone's detriment that we all engage in content indifferent behavior. Yet here we are.

I don't find the situations analogous at all. Altruistic or socially-optimal voting under the current system has an obvious and huge immediate cost, so it is a pretty easy to expect it to be heavily disfavored under the current system. To cooperate and sustain it would be a huge effort with large coordination cost.

By contrast, free downvotes have very little direct cost. There _might_ be some retaliation, but that also _might_ be implausible (if someone is downvoted by 5 or 10 different voters, are they going to retaliate against all of them; vote power limits alone might make this impossible). It is far more likely to expect that some altruistic or non-myopic self-interest to kick in there, when the cost is much lower, the way it does when people make small (positive) edits to wikipedia and such.

I would agree it may not be sufficient, but I don't think it is clear it is insufficient just because it isn't directly rewarded and therefore perfect game theory might suggest ignoring the option altogether.  Though to be perfectly mathematically precise, if you have any active content eligible for a payout, downvoting does benefit you, however slightly, and likewise, long term good-of-the-platform considerations also benefit you, if also slightly.  Again, it is more likely to expect these considerations to matter when they aren't offset by a huge direct cost. After all, it doesn't cost much to physically click downvote if you don't like something, as people do millions of times per day without any incentive on reddit, etc.

BTW, I do think downvoting (assuming it happens a reasonable amount, which is uncertain; see above) brings price discovery, not directly, but via its effect on upvoters. That's precisely non-linearity in action. Upvotes have more 'oomph' if they don't get downvoted, just as they would have more 'oomph' if combined with other upvotes (or, at least, more stake) in a superlinear upvoting system. So people upvoting who want their votes to have maximum value (either for curation or reward purposes), a natural desire, need to consider what is more or less likely to be downvoted. That brings price discovery. In the extreme case, if you upvote for N rshares and get downvoted for N rshares your vote then has no value at all. That's clearly inefficient and unprofitable voting you would prefer to avoid.
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@valued-customer · (edited)
>"Variation in reward for any given sp weighted vote is crucial to making it more difficult to mindlessly price votes for bid bots, favor good curation more, and generally helps content reflective voting behavior to out-compete content indifferent behavior."

This is absolutely true, but this only regards economic incentives.

I note that our interests aren't merely economic, and neglecting other metrics precludes competence at effecting other rewards that are more valuable than money.

I keep hammering on this point because I am confident that only by considering those more valuable aspects of society can we resolve economic imbalances caused by only considering economic factors.  Finance is integral to society, but it is not the only metric that matters.  Failing to use other metrics forces economic metrics to primacy, and thus profiteering is unavoidable, as when only economic metrics are considered, only financial profit matters.

I note that problems sought to be resolved involve non-economic factors, and those factors must be valued and rewarded to rationally address those issues.  Effecting non-financial rewards is necessary to achieve non-financial goals.  There are other valuable considerations, such as friendship, content quality, and societal felicity, that are necessarily exchanged in social interactions.  Proposing only economic functions as solutions precludes successfully aligning the economic aspect of social media with the actual value of society.
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@sorin.cristescu ·
>At the heart of what favors content indifferent voting in terms of profit maximization is that vote/sp is identical (roughly speaking) irrespective of where it's cast. 

We need to get out of the pure "dollar term reasoning", think outside the box, bring in a second dimension, a second yardstick, that is what makes us human and not cold calculating machines

We need to come together and create communities around shared values. A set of shared values inspire human behaviour even in the absence of economic incentives (see religion and ideologies). 

We need to start a series of thriving, vibrant steemit "passions" as there are already examples around "open source software" (@utopian-io) or "science" (@steemstem)

Mini societies that curate based not on the financial reward but on their own internal, subjective value system
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