Viewing a response to: @yabapmatt/re-practicalthought-re-theycallmedan-should-we-raise-curation-rewards-from-2575-to-5050-20190423t220440786z
I agree with everything with all that, but I still vote yes myself. I see it as a distribution issue that can hurt Steem down the line if the token circulates among vote sellers and self upvoters since doing that is 3x more profitable in Steem ROI. But you are right, it doesn't matter much right now and isn't the reason a lot of people are not here, we need to build cool shit for that to happen.
post_id | 73,613,606 |
---|---|
author | theycallmedan |
permlink | re-yabapmatt-re-practicalthought-re-theycallmedan-should-we-raise-curation-rewards-from-2575-to-5050-20190423t220959621z |
category | dpoll |
json_metadata | {"tags":["dpoll"],"app":"steemit\/0.1"} |
created | 2019-04-23 22:10:03 |
last_update | 2019-04-23 22:10:03 |
depth | 3 |
children | 22 |
net_rshares | 121,933,972,903 |
last_payout | 2019-04-30 22:10:03 |
cashout_time | 1969-12-31 23:59:59 |
total_payout_value | 0.045 SBD |
curator_payout_value | 0.010 SBD |
pending_payout_value | 0.000 SBD |
promoted | 0.000 SBD |
body_length | 399 |
author_reputation | 402,202,202,441,317 |
root_title | "Should We Raise Curation Rewards From 25/75 To 50/50?" |
beneficiaries | [] |
max_accepted_payout | 1,000,000.000 SBD |
percent_steem_dollars | 0 |
author_curate_reward | "" |
voter | weight | wgt% | rshares | pct | time |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
joythewanderer | 0 | 8,674,091,317 | 1% | ||
alfonzo | 0 | 1,126,108,503 | 51% | ||
lordbutterfly | 0 | 103,656,923,194 | 100% | ||
urme33 | 0 | 8,476,849,889 | 17% |
> if the token circulates among vote sellers and self upvoters since doing that is 3x more profitable in Steem ROI No amount of tweaking the reward system algorithm will change that. If we change the curation reward percentage then the vote selling services / self upvoters will simply adjust how they work to take advantage of the new model. In my opinion the best way to solve these issues is to fix the issues with downvoting. The cool part about Steem is the ability to crowdsource the rewards for content. Since downvoting is so heavily disincentivized currently, it's almost non-existent, which means it's not possible to have a true wisdom of the crowd effect. Downvoting needs to exactly mirror upvoting for this to have a chance at working, meaning there needs to be a separate and equal voting mana pool for downvoting AND there must be equal but opposite curation rewards for downvoting as well.
post_id | 73,613,948 |
---|---|
author | yabapmatt |
permlink | re-theycallmedan-re-yabapmatt-re-practicalthought-re-theycallmedan-should-we-raise-curation-rewards-from-2575-to-5050-20190423t221945858z |
category | dpoll |
json_metadata | {"tags":["dpoll"],"app":"steemit\/0.1"} |
created | 2019-04-23 22:19:45 |
last_update | 2019-04-23 22:19:45 |
depth | 4 |
children | 21 |
net_rshares | 527,292,152,534 |
last_payout | 2019-04-30 22:19:45 |
cashout_time | 1969-12-31 23:59:59 |
total_payout_value | 0.198 SBD |
curator_payout_value | 0.046 SBD |
pending_payout_value | 0.000 SBD |
promoted | 0.000 SBD |
body_length | 909 |
author_reputation | 96,235,062,639,808 |
root_title | "Should We Raise Curation Rewards From 25/75 To 50/50?" |
beneficiaries | [] |
max_accepted_payout | 1,000,000.000 SBD |
percent_steem_dollars | 10,000 |
author_curate_reward | "" |
voter | weight | wgt% | rshares | pct | time |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
igster | 0 | 335,272,121 | 1% | ||
demotruk | 0 | 47,584,264,678 | 2% | ||
valued-customer | 0 | 9,852,388,380 | 25% | ||
grintsch | 0 | 4,659,813,137 | 50% | ||
glenalbrethsen | 0 | 25,743,661,246 | 10% | ||
lordbutterfly | 0 | 105,769,079,179 | 100% | ||
theycallmedan | 0 | 333,347,673,793 | 1% |
>No amount of tweaking the reward system algorithm will change that. If we change the curation reward percentage then the vote selling services / self upvoters will simply adjust how they work to take advantage of the new model. This is true, but it still doesn't change the fact 50/50 makes curation much more attractive then 25/75, thus people would be more willing to delegate to curation bots that put in the effort to find content that will get a lot of upvotes and not delegate to bid bots. People who sell votes will take a hit because people only pay for the meat of the vote as curation is terrible with vote bots (ppl use bots on day old content etc.) - Not saying this is going to make it perfect, but I think it's better than the current setup. I agree with downvotes; I like your idea. Just fixing how downvotes work will at least help keep vote buyers/bid bots in check, so they don't just run rampant upvoting any content.
post_id | 73,614,168 |
---|---|
author | theycallmedan |
permlink | re-yabapmatt-re-theycallmedan-re-yabapmatt-re-practicalthought-re-theycallmedan-should-we-raise-curation-rewards-from-2575-to-5050-20190423t222854978z |
category | dpoll |
json_metadata | {"tags":["dpoll"],"app":"steemit\/0.1"} |
created | 2019-04-23 22:29:00 |
last_update | 2019-04-23 22:29:00 |
depth | 5 |
children | 8 |
net_rshares | 8,445,625,944 |
last_payout | 2019-04-30 22:29:00 |
cashout_time | 1969-12-31 23:59:59 |
total_payout_value | 0.000 SBD |
curator_payout_value | 0.000 SBD |
pending_payout_value | 0.000 SBD |
promoted | 0.000 SBD |
body_length | 940 |
author_reputation | 402,202,202,441,317 |
root_title | "Should We Raise Curation Rewards From 25/75 To 50/50?" |
beneficiaries | [] |
max_accepted_payout | 1,000,000.000 SBD |
percent_steem_dollars | 0 |
author_curate_reward | "" |
voter | weight | wgt% | rshares | pct | time |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
urme33 | 0 | 8,445,625,944 | 17% |
>This is true, but it still doesn't change the fact 50/50 makes curation much more attractive then 25/75, thus people would be more willing to delegate to curation bots that put in the effort to find content that will get a lot of upvotes and not delegate to bid bots. Might make it more attractive to curators who for the most part are racing to vote at the right time more than actually finding good content which is what true curation is .. it wont make it more attractive to content creators who see more of their effort going to more bots. Bid bots are not going anywhere. Doesn't matter how much you tinker with curation splits. That just changes their income pattern. Some people value the work they put into creating content. Those people will take a serious look at this platform and decide to move on.
post_id | 73,649,720 |
---|---|
author | shadowspub |
permlink | re-theycallmedan-re-yabapmatt-re-theycallmedan-re-yabapmatt-re-practicalthought-re-theycallmedan-should-we-raise-curation-rewards-from-2575-to-5050-20190424t132219465z |
category | dpoll |
json_metadata | {"tags":["dpoll"],"app":"steemit\/0.1"} |
created | 2019-04-24 13:22:21 |
last_update | 2019-04-24 13:22:21 |
depth | 6 |
children | 7 |
net_rshares | 167,426,835,598 |
last_payout | 2019-05-01 13:22:21 |
cashout_time | 1969-12-31 23:59:59 |
total_payout_value | 0.062 SBD |
curator_payout_value | 0.020 SBD |
pending_payout_value | 0.000 SBD |
promoted | 0.000 SBD |
body_length | 816 |
author_reputation | 122,086,225,405,906 |
root_title | "Should We Raise Curation Rewards From 25/75 To 50/50?" |
beneficiaries | [] |
max_accepted_payout | 1,000,000.000 SBD |
percent_steem_dollars | 10,000 |
author_curate_reward | "" |
voter | weight | wgt% | rshares | pct | time |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
jaki01 | 0 | 157,743,657,089 | 5% | ||
valued-customer | 0 | 9,683,178,509 | 25% |
Ok then Downvote Services pop up and the Steem Blockchain will sucks. So vote seller earn twice. One time with upvote and another time with downvote.
post_id | 73,641,651 |
---|---|
author | freddio |
permlink | re-yabapmatt-re-theycallmedan-re-yabapmatt-re-practicalthought-re-theycallmedan-should-we-raise-curation-rewards-from-2575-to-5050-20190424t102828081z |
category | dpoll |
json_metadata | {"tags":["dpoll"],"app":"steempeak\/1.9.8"} |
created | 2019-04-24 10:28:15 |
last_update | 2019-04-24 10:28:15 |
depth | 5 |
children | 1 |
net_rshares | 9,595,124,171 |
last_payout | 2019-05-01 10:28:15 |
cashout_time | 1969-12-31 23:59:59 |
total_payout_value | 0.000 SBD |
curator_payout_value | 0.000 SBD |
pending_payout_value | 0.000 SBD |
promoted | 0.000 SBD |
body_length | 149 |
author_reputation | 11,277,743,744,431 |
root_title | "Should We Raise Curation Rewards From 25/75 To 50/50?" |
beneficiaries | [] |
max_accepted_payout | 1,000,000.000 SBD |
percent_steem_dollars | 10,000 |
author_curate_reward | "" |
voter | weight | wgt% | rshares | pct | time |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
valued-customer | 0 | 9,595,124,171 | 25% |
That's exactly why @yabapmatt's proposed positive curation reward for downvoting cannot work, as two equal votes, one up and one down, should negate all rewards for the content, but his proposal would extract curation rewards for the voters anyway. Great point!
post_id | 73,790,656 |
---|---|
author | valued-customer |
permlink | re-freddio-re-yabapmatt-re-theycallmedan-re-yabapmatt-re-practicalthought-re-theycallmedan-should-we-raise-curation-rewards-from-2575-to-5050-20190427t082759351z |
category | dpoll |
json_metadata | {"tags":["dpoll"],"app":"steempeak\/1.9.8"} |
created | 2019-04-27 08:28:12 |
last_update | 2019-04-27 08:28:12 |
depth | 6 |
children | 0 |
net_rshares | 0 |
last_payout | 2019-05-04 08:28:12 |
cashout_time | 1969-12-31 23:59:59 |
total_payout_value | 0.000 SBD |
curator_payout_value | 0.000 SBD |
pending_payout_value | 0.000 SBD |
promoted | 0.000 SBD |
body_length | 262 |
author_reputation | 48,231,784,822,393 |
root_title | "Should We Raise Curation Rewards From 25/75 To 50/50?" |
beneficiaries | [] |
max_accepted_payout | 1,000,000.000 SBD |
percent_steem_dollars | 10,000 |
>then the vote selling services / self upvoters will simply adjust how they work to take advantage of the new model. Im glad to see someone a bit more reputable then myself is putting this forward. The problem here is that those that are for 50/50 have a overly optimistic view of the outcome. No one for one second is even willing to consider the fact that vote selling services will simply adjust. Not only am i against this proposal, i fear it. Imo, <b>Its probably the worst idea with the biggest support right now.</b> STEEM community size and retention are in direct correlation to the STEEM price meaning that if you cut author earnings you can expect a lot of content creators to leave and user numbers drop off. Assuming that vote sellers that are completely uninterested in curating will suddenly start curating after the vote selling services adjust is completely unrealistic. The only time a cut in author earnings should be encouraged is if it leads to increase in price of STEEM. <b>For that very reason im advocating for the cut to happen after the @blocktrades DAO is live and the inflation to be used to fund projects.</b> 1. The loss in author rewards goes into improving the STEEM ecosystem which should by all account increase STEEM price. 2. Vote selling will be reduced due to lower demand and bots will have a much harder time adjusting since the curation would remain at 25% Instead of giving a few curators more money and fixing nothing, i think this is the proper path to take that would have a much greater positive effect.
post_id | 73,642,738 |
---|---|
author | lordbutterfly |
permlink | re-yabapmatt-re-theycallmedan-re-yabapmatt-re-practicalthought-re-theycallmedan-should-we-raise-curation-rewards-from-2575-to-5050-20190424t105508760z |
category | dpoll |
json_metadata | {"tags":["dpoll"],"app":"steempeak\/1.9.8"} |
created | 2019-04-24 10:55:09 |
last_update | 2019-04-24 11:24:18 |
depth | 5 |
children | 5 |
net_rshares | 38,348,031,788 |
last_payout | 2019-05-01 10:55:09 |
cashout_time | 1969-12-31 23:59:59 |
total_payout_value | 0.000 SBD |
curator_payout_value | 0.000 SBD |
pending_payout_value | 0.000 SBD |
promoted | 0.000 SBD |
body_length | 1,558 |
author_reputation | 104,712,854,805,089 |
root_title | "Should We Raise Curation Rewards From 25/75 To 50/50?" |
beneficiaries | [] |
max_accepted_payout | 1,000,000.000 SBD |
percent_steem_dollars | 10,000 |
author_curate_reward | "" |
voter | weight | wgt% | rshares | pct | time |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
demotruk | 0 | 23,834,782,667 | 1% | ||
valued-customer | 0 | 9,806,156,707 | 25% | ||
grintsch | 0 | 4,707,092,414 | 50% |
Thanks for summing this up. I've had a very similar view on the proposal ever since it came up and none of the arguments so far have been able to convince me. There's a lot broken about the platform, but I also don't think the 50/50 will improve it, it has potential to make it worse. What do we want to achieve? We want quality content to be created, made visible and easily consumable for users so that they are motivating to stay on the platform and engage with it. Would we want to distinguish between certain types of content? Sure. Would we want to incentivize creating long-living content (which probably is more work and therefore bears higher opportunity cost)? I would think so. Will there be bots exploiting any system we set up? Most definitely. With 50/50, no more quality content will be produced (less incentive may even mean less of it). Will curators looking for rewards vote for quality content or the content that is most likely to receive large votes after they voted? Is that different from what it is now? Hard to imagine. Posted using [Partiko Android](https://partiko.app/referral/grintsch)
post_id | 73,669,215 |
---|---|
author | grintsch |
permlink | grintsch-re-lordbutterfly-re-yabapmatt-re-theycallmedan-re-yabapmatt-re-practicalthought-re-theycallmedan-should-we-raise-curation-rewards-from-2575-to-5050-20190424t211906867z |
category | dpoll |
json_metadata | {"app":"partiko","client":"android"} |
created | 2019-04-24 21:19:09 |
last_update | 2019-04-24 21:19:09 |
depth | 6 |
children | 3 |
net_rshares | 9,766,112,468 |
last_payout | 2019-05-01 21:19:09 |
cashout_time | 1969-12-31 23:59:59 |
total_payout_value | 0.000 SBD |
curator_payout_value | 0.000 SBD |
pending_payout_value | 0.000 SBD |
promoted | 0.000 SBD |
body_length | 1,119 |
author_reputation | 1,676,657,841,621 |
root_title | "Should We Raise Curation Rewards From 25/75 To 50/50?" |
beneficiaries | [] |
max_accepted_payout | 1,000,000.000 SBD |
percent_steem_dollars | 10,000 |
author_curate_reward | "" |
voter | weight | wgt% | rshares | pct | time |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
valued-customer | 0 | 9,766,112,468 | 25% |
I absolutely agree with your reasoning here, except in the DAO. Perhaps I misunderstand what you mean, but I understood that author rewards are going to be redirected (as inflation, prior to being filtered out via upvotes) in part to the DAO. This amounts to a tax, and the creation of a central taxing authority, which equates to a form of involuntary government. I'm agin' it. I'd be happy to pick and choose developments or individual devs to support, with upvotes, beneficiary rewards, or any *voluntary* mechanism. Please clarify if I have misunderstood. Also, @edicted recently posted regarding making curation rewards a slider chosen by authors, who could set curation to 100% if they so chose, or at any level they want. I'm fully in favor of this, as it empower individuals to make that decision - which is the way a decentralized blockchain should work IMHO.
post_id | 73,790,289 |
---|---|
author | valued-customer |
permlink | re-lordbutterfly-re-yabapmatt-re-theycallmedan-re-yabapmatt-re-practicalthought-re-theycallmedan-should-we-raise-curation-rewards-from-2575-to-5050-20190427t081206048z |
category | dpoll |
json_metadata | {"tags":["dpoll"],"app":"steempeak\/1.9.8"} |
created | 2019-04-27 08:12:18 |
last_update | 2019-04-27 08:12:18 |
depth | 6 |
children | 0 |
net_rshares | 178,164,557,753 |
last_payout | 2019-05-04 08:12:18 |
cashout_time | 1969-12-31 23:59:59 |
total_payout_value | 0.068 SBD |
curator_payout_value | 0.021 SBD |
pending_payout_value | 0.000 SBD |
promoted | 0.000 SBD |
body_length | 877 |
author_reputation | 48,231,784,822,393 |
root_title | "Should We Raise Curation Rewards From 25/75 To 50/50?" |
beneficiaries | [] |
max_accepted_payout | 1,000,000.000 SBD |
percent_steem_dollars | 10,000 |
author_curate_reward | "" |
voter | weight | wgt% | rshares | pct | time |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
jaki01 | 0 | 159,817,413,497 | 5% | ||
kobold-djawa | 0 | 205,735,096,890 | 100% | ||
davidorcamuriel | 0 | 124,509,635,537 | 10% | ||
sirvotesalot | 0 | -803,860,212,445 | -24.2% | ||
realcleaner | 0 | 491,962,624,274 | 24.2% |
Hey, @yabapmatt. I'm agreeing that tweaking the author/curator ratio won't really have the desired effect, for all the reasons you describe and probably more, so thanks for that. I understand what you're saying about the downvoting, and in a world where people actually used downvotes properly, I might be with you there. I wonder how this rewards for downvoting doesn't end up being abused too, worse than downvoting is now. As it stands, two larger accounts decide they don't like each other and people who have nothing to do with it, but because one or the other curates a post or comment, all of a sudden, they're being hit, too, along with obnoxious comments where it's painfully obvious they simply don't care who gets it. So, how would you go about securing the downvoting incentive system so that people aren't just downvoting to milk it, and/or taking folks who have nothing to do with the skirmish down with them? And where would this separate pool draw from?
post_id | 73,671,926 |
---|---|
author | glenalbrethsen |
permlink | re-yabapmatt-re-theycallmedan-re-yabapmatt-re-practicalthought-re-theycallmedan-should-we-raise-curation-rewards-from-2575-to-5050-20190424t224720015z |
category | dpoll |
json_metadata | {"tags":["dpoll"],"users":["yabapmatt"],"app":"steemit\/0.1"} |
created | 2019-04-24 22:47:21 |
last_update | 2019-04-24 22:47:21 |
depth | 5 |
children | 3 |
net_rshares | 9,555,012,898 |
last_payout | 2019-05-01 22:47:21 |
cashout_time | 1969-12-31 23:59:59 |
total_payout_value | 0.000 SBD |
curator_payout_value | 0.000 SBD |
pending_payout_value | 0.000 SBD |
promoted | 0.000 SBD |
body_length | 972 |
author_reputation | 73,752,675,176,126 |
root_title | "Should We Raise Curation Rewards From 25/75 To 50/50?" |
beneficiaries | [] |
max_accepted_payout | 1,000,000.000 SBD |
percent_steem_dollars | 10,000 |
author_curate_reward | "" |
voter | weight | wgt% | rshares | pct | time |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
valued-customer | 0 | 9,555,012,898 | 25% |
As we see that folks are milking curation rewards as simply a mechanism for extracting rent from their stake, adding flags to the mechanisms they can do that with is certain to be similarly abused. Further, @freddio pointed out that voters mutually flagging and upvoting would both extract curation rewards, and this would bollux the rewards mechanism. Presently, flagging is a negative curation reward, which then returns Steem to the pool (before it leaves the pool at all, yeah). @yabapmatt's proposal would instead reward those ostensibly curative flags and increase the draw on the inflation pool. In many cases today, in the flagwar you mention, up and down votes cancel each other out (or at least eliminate author and curation rewards altogether, since they cannot be negative (although.... )). Even if there's a separate pool for flag rewards, it would still draw from the source: inflation. So a post that has been reduced to zero rewards for the author would still produce rewards for the voters - creating 100% curation rewards. Whaddya say @yabapmatt?
post_id | 73,790,908 |
---|---|
author | valued-customer |
permlink | re-glenalbrethsen-re-yabapmatt-re-theycallmedan-re-yabapmatt-re-practicalthought-re-theycallmedan-should-we-raise-curation-rewards-from-2575-to-5050-20190427t083802054z |
category | dpoll |
json_metadata | {"tags":["dpoll"],"app":"steempeak\/1.9.8"} |
created | 2019-04-27 08:38:15 |
last_update | 2019-04-27 08:39:09 |
depth | 6 |
children | 2 |
net_rshares | 611,124,992,420 |
last_payout | 2019-05-04 08:38:15 |
cashout_time | 1969-12-31 23:59:59 |
total_payout_value | 0.234 SBD |
curator_payout_value | 0.076 SBD |
pending_payout_value | 0.000 SBD |
promoted | 0.000 SBD |
body_length | 1,075 |
author_reputation | 48,231,784,822,393 |
root_title | "Should We Raise Curation Rewards From 25/75 To 50/50?" |
beneficiaries | [] |
max_accepted_payout | 1,000,000.000 SBD |
percent_steem_dollars | 10,000 |
author_curate_reward | "" |
voter | weight | wgt% | rshares | pct | time |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
thecyclist | 0 | -221,267,176,770 | -29.65% | ||
glenalbrethsen | 0 | 94,825,487,530 | 35% | ||
kerrywolf | 0 | 81,959,447,446 | 29.65% | ||
proboards | 0 | 81,952,599,888 | 35.39% |