Countering votes to (somewhat) fight abusive voting by liberosist

View this thread on steempeak.com
· @liberosist · (edited)
$9.78
Countering votes to (somewhat) fight abusive voting
Firstly, let me start out by saying plutocracies are fascist bile, and stake-weighted voting sets us back centuries. Till stake-weighted voting is consigned to the annals of history, voting on Steem will always remain abusive. Plutocracies have failed throughout history, and there's zero evidence to suggest it'll ever work for Steem. I'm open to being presented evidence to the contrary, of course. That said, the goal here is to work within that context, and give the users some options to mitigate abusive voting. This idea came off a conversation with @trafalgar in a different thread. All thanks to him, as this post would not exist without his inputs. 

Secondly, this is merely a thought experiment, and not a proposal. I don't think this is practical, but could be refined, modified and integrated into a solution that works. I know this is all over the place, and no one will read this, so if you're crazy enough to read my mad ramblings, I apologize and thank you. 

Currently, a whale can make sweeping votes. Let's consider two example scenarios. 1) The whale could make a self-vote worth $100, and 2) The whale will take a popular post down to 0 by downvoting it due to some personal vendetta. 

There could be 1,000 minnows each with a $0.1 vote who could downvote the self-vote and upvote the downvoted post, but currently, no one will do so because of a) Fear of retaliation, b) they don't want to waste 2% VP, and c) no one else will do it, so it'll be a waste of time. 

The idea suggested here is the ability to counter a specific vote. Dan Larimer had first suggested vote countering back in 2016 when he was the CTO of Steemit Inc, but this idea will be more granular than a simple 1:1 vote counter. 

Each vote will have its own R-shares distribution, just like there is for a post today. People will be able to counter a specific vote, while others can choose to support the vote. 

In scenario 1), the counter vote will be a downvote; while in scenario 2) the counter vote would be an upvote. Please note that by countering a vote on a post, the voter forgoes the ability to vote on the parent post itself. I.e. in scenario 1), you're countering the whale's self-vote, but you will not be voting on the whale's post where they left the self-vote. 

Speaking of curation rewards, we'll ignore that for this post for the sake of brevity and clarity, and instead talk about a different incentive - VP costs and subsidies. 

Like how curation rewards work today, there's a Wgt% assigned by how early a voter is, and the R-shares allocated by their vote. The exact formula of Wgt% is TBD, of course it's not going to be like curation rewards. The system will need to be modified to account for -ve R-shares (i.e. downvotes) as well as +ve R-shares (upvotes). 

The end result would be a distribution algorithm where voters are some magnitude of "correct" and "incorrect", and some magnitude of early and late. Depending on a) how correct (or incorrect) they are, and b) how early they are, voters get a VP subsidy (or cost, if incorrect). 

The median VP cost will always remain 2% VP (or relative proportion of, considering voting strength %). At the time of voting, each vote will be debited 2% VP, as it is currently. The subsidy or cost over/under 2% will be incurred when the parent post pays out. Till then, all voting is considered pending, as it is currently. 

Let's consider scenario 1), regarding the whale's $100 vote. To be clear, I'm not suggesting that there's anything wrong with self-voting. But maybe 2,000 minnows each allocating $0.1 feel otherwise. 

Let's begin with 1,000 minnows deciding to counter the initial $100 vote down to zero. In this case, the 1,000 minnows and the initial whale are both half correct and half wrong. However, by being the earliest voter, it is more like the whale was half wrong by making a contentious vote in the first place. To that end, the whale will have to pay a penalty in VP over and above the 2%. Meanwhile, the 1,000 minnows will get VP bonus to partially subsidize their 2% VP cost. How much the bonus is will depend on how early they were to predict the "correct" outcome. In this scenario, the first few minnows may even stand to gain a VP bonus of above 2%, effectively having earned VP from the vote, instead of spending 2%. However, those piling on the downvotes once the outcome is more certain will likely end up with a much smaller subsidy, and end up incurring a cost near 2%, but marginally under. 

What if another 1,000 minnows join in to downvote? Now, the post will stand at cumulative -ve R-shares equivalent of -$100, signalling this was an extremely bad vote. When this happens, the whale will start incurring increasing penalties, while the earliest minnow counter voters will start seeing increasing VP bonuses. 

Of course, there will be those that'll support the self-voting whale, and will vote with + R-shares on the vote.

Similarly, for scenario 2), people would be countering the downvote with upvotes. It doesn't matter if the vote being countered is a downvote or upvote; all principles apply. The potential difference is people are unlikely to downvote beyond $0, while upvoting past the $100 downvote is more likely. This will need to be addressed in the distribution algorithm. 

At the end of the payout period, we'll end up with **a distribution of each voter being some magnitude of "correctness" and timeliness**, include the initial vote that's being countered. Some voters will pay a penalty, while some will receive a bonus. The best curators may even stand to gain a VP >100%, effectively incentivizing good quality control. 

Of course, this needs to be combined with further incentives and a cultural shift to normalize countervoting. As it stands now, everything I have said above is not going to work.
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vote details (45)
@tts ·
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@lordbutterfly ·
$0.04
>Firstly, let me start out by saying plutocracies are fascist bile, and stake-weighted voting sets us back centuries.  

Youre the first person i saw use this description here, outside me, that is. I chalk that up to the most common worldview present here. 

On the text itself... Interesting idea but as you say, it wouldnt work.. 
With all this talk about tweeking the economy i rarely see anyone addressing human behavior in depth and what the reaction to the change will be. If they do mention it, its very simplistic and utopistic depending on what their personal agenda is. 
You can tweek the economy as much as you want but until you can deal with human behavior you wont achieve much. 


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@geekgirl ·
You can change the code to change the human behavior. Isn't the whole point of blockchain to remove trust from humans to machines?
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@lordbutterfly ·
Not really, imo.. People generally tend to act in line with their character. 
Removing trust from humans to machines is great and i think is doable but i dont see that having to do much with this case here when you go into complex human interactions and questions of morality and fairness.. 
Once complex human values are introduced into a system like STEEM has done it, <b>there is no amount of code that can change behavior when change still creates venues for the same behavior to continue.</b> 
 
STEEM might seem simple on the surface level but due to the social aspect its probably the most complex platform in crypto. 
I always say that STEEM has a _society building potential._ Something "transfer coins" do not. 

I mean i know its controversial to say... <b>but without restricting certain behavior or creating powerful enough tools to counter that which is found to be against the vision of STEEM through a consensus, you will never be able to stop certain behavior.</b>
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@liberosist ·
Most people here recognize that stake-weighted voting is... bad. But there's no consensus on a better solution to make something like Steem work. 

Tweaking the economy is to account for the imperfections of human behaviour. But yes, I agree that it should be considered in greater depth.
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@lordbutterfly ·
Well if a consensus could be found on what is "bad" then the question is, could there be a consensus on the need to restrict behavior?
How willing would the community and the stake holders be to impose a basic set of enforced rules?
Hehe. Not very i assume. ☺

At this point thats the only thing i see making a big enough change outside a few cosmetic tweeks. (Unfortunately steemit.inc is hellbent on sticking with the  vote value content placement algo.)

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@geekgirl ·
$0.04
You are one of the brilliant minds I have met. Your premise of ***"stake-weighted voting sets us back centuries."***  suggests nothing would really work. I take Steem as an experiment and I tend to disagree with the premise.

Stake-weighted voting is common practice in businesses, more shares you have higher your vote in companies. One would assume high stake holders would be more interested in long term value increase of their stakes rather than short term smaller gains. Steem experiment with current economics model has shown many high stake holder would choose short term smaller gains versus long term higher gains. However, there are enough high stake holders who has continued long term strategy.

In regards to downvotes without a VP cost, I am actually not fan of downvotes altogether, except for extreme situations. Countering votes is a new concept, and take a learning curve for people to fully understand. Hence, serves against its intended purpose. I would prefer to keep downvotes with VP cost to avoid abuse.

For me curation rewards part is the most important. For stake-weighed voting to work people should be incentivized to buy into Steem. I like 50/50 distribution. If it was up to me I would go further and choose 75% curation rewards which would drive investment into Steem. This would drive Steem prices higher as an attractive investment. Higher prices would mean higher earnings for author. There would be no need for self votes or selling votes. 

That said, I am glad there is some progress in regards to applying some changes to the Steem economics. Nothing wrong with experimenting. Hopefully something will work. Current system seems to be just tied to the price of Steem.
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vote details (3)
@liberosist ·
$0.07
Yes, you're right that stake-weighting works well in businesses, but Steem is more like a society, an economy, something like that. Definitely not a business. We have governments and legal systems precisely because societies cannot be run like businesses without gross abuse of human rights. 

I disagree about downvotes, a society without the ability to express dissent or a negative opinion is a sick one I don't want to be a part of. Reddit works so wonderfully because you can upvote and downvote, and the costs to either are the same. 

As for 50/50 distribution, I see where you're coming from, but the content creators unanimously oppose it. Without content, there is no curation. 

At the end of the day, investing and curation are two fundamentally disparate concepts which can never work in one system.
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@geekgirl ·
$0.04
I think Steem should be viewed as a business. In societies people can't escape, so it is crucial to have legal systems and governments to avoid abuse of human rights. In a social media like Steem or others, one can easily stop using it to escape any kind of abuse. 

I didn't mean to get rid of downvotes. I think there should be a cost for downvotes. Free downvotes will probably increase the abuse. In Steem front ends counts for downvotes are not visible unlike other social media. I think if counts for both upvotes and downvotes were visible that would be better since it will give an idea ratio of those who like and didn't like the content.

Most content creators who oppose 50/50 I just think of 50% of current rewards. I can see rewards increasing at least 10 fold if there was an incentive for investors to buy into Steem. 50% of $10 is better than 75% of $5. If people have no incentive or reason to buy Steem why would Steem price go up? If people don't have incentive to upvote why would author upvotes increase? Moreover, authors will be motivated to upvote those who engage with their content, as they will be earning more upvoting comments.

I do see curation rewards as an incentive to invest. Simple reason being majority of people are not content creators. But rather content consumers. If they can stake their funds to monetize their time consuming content, I think they would choose so. 

One of the reasons, Steem is broken and full of shit-posts is because that is the only way to earn and compete to earn with fellow users. Of course you could remove that by removing all rewards, but then what is the point of having Steem then?
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@valued-customer ·
>"Your premise of "stake-weighted voting sets us back centuries." suggests nothing would really work."

I disagree pretty strongly.  There are other metrics by which actual people value, and stake weighting very much decrements all other values in favor of money.  Mike Tyson said that Don King would sell his momma for a dollar, and this reflects perversion of society by mammon in a way that favors pimps over parents, to all our detriment.

Steem is, at least was originally, a mechanism to support society.  Economy is not the most important aspect of society, and the basing of value on mere financial return is how curation has been rendered practically without worth as a means of promoting the highest quality content.  Curation isn't curation as practiced presently, but merely a means of extracting the capital necessary to market Steem and instead concentrate it in the wallets of profiteers.

This is one example of how stake weighting is destructive to society.  War profiteering is a more concrete example in the real world.  Stake weighting is a disease that kills the host in time, and the seemingly endless cycle of imperial evolution is a good example of the harm that disease inflicts on society, it's host.  We can see exactly the same details contributing to the collapse of the Roman empire - debasement of it's currency by inflation that enriched stakeholders - that is happening today with dollars.

Money can support society, and allowing it to become the purpose of society destroys both.

People have other stakes that are vastly more valuable to them than their money.  Stake weighting as currently effected simply degrades people and their values as mere financial tools, and this inevitably destroys the value of money as it destroys people, and this society.  History is basically that lesson repeated every few centuries as empires grow on sound money, and collapse as money becomes the most valuable metric and devalues blood and posterity.  Sir John Glubb reveals this cycle, although he himself may not have actually grasped that reality.

Steem is a new kind of money, and one potential of it is to better value metrics socially.  Only if we consider value more accurately than has been undertaken historically can that be effected, and stake weighting, as @liberosist points out, actually reverts to our barbaric forefathers, that died in pools of blood under the clubs of barbarians precisely because they didn't advance financial technology to better represent value socially.

At least we won't suffer that failure of our lives if Steem fails to do so.  Nonetheless the failure of Steem to improve on money itself is a loss we will all lament if we don't surmount the challenge of technological advance.  Bots and corporations aren't people.  Digits in our accounts aren't the fingers of our posterity we marvel at when they're born and grow.  Substituting finance for more important metrics is barbaric and foolish, and we have innumerable examples of the failure of economy to support society to teach us that lesson.  If we fail to use Steem to support more valuable metrics, Steem will continue to pose as the most valuable aspect of society, and since that is a false proposition, Steem will ultimately fail to function as money, because the society dependent on it will be destroyed thereby.
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@iflagtrash ·
I flag trash.  You have received a flag.
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@geekgirl ·
I think it is too extreme to compare Steem or any online platform to real-world societies. My comment is within the context of improving Steem economics and incentives for Steem to work properly, still using the stake-weighted voting. I would actually be ok if you remove it altogether and keep tiny inflation for witness pays. However, that is no realistic, most likely never will happen. So, tweaking the code a little bit and changing incentives for Steem to function better should at least be tried.
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vote details (1)
@steemitboard ·
Congratulations @liberosist! You have completed the following achievement on the Steem blockchain and have been rewarded with new badge(s) :

<table><tr><td><img src="https://steemitimages.com/60x70/http://steemitboard.com/@liberosist/commented.png?201905201114"></td><td>You got more than 4500 replies. Your next target is to reach 4750 replies.</td></tr>
</table>

<sub>_You can view [your badges on your Steem Board](https://steemitboard.com/@liberosist) and compare to others on the [Steem Ranking](http://steemitboard.com/ranking/index.php?name=liberosist)_</sub>
<sub>_If you no longer want to receive notifications, reply to this comment with the word_ `STOP`</sub>



###### [Vote for @Steemitboard as a witness](https://v2.steemconnect.com/sign/account-witness-vote?witness=steemitboard&approve=1) to get one more award and increased upvotes!
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@valued-customer ·
I really have never liked the timing of votes as a mechanism for determining their import.  The world is round, and the sun shines on all it's sides.  The present timing mechanism currently favors Americans, because there are more Americans in their time zones present on the blockchain.  This weights their VP import in their favor.

Mongolians and Ukrainians are reduced in import because they're in different time zones.

When the sun is shining on a post should not determine how VP of people impacts it.

Thanks!
👎  
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vote details (1)
@iflagtrash ·
I flag trash.  You have received a flag.
👍  ,
👎  
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vote details (3)