Patience with the Hardfork - There Must Be Consensus by steemitblog

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hardfork-17 · @steemitblog ·
Patience with the Hardfork - There Must Be Consensus
<html>
<p>Due to the inability of witnesses to come to a consensus regarding Hardfork 17 this update to the Steem blockchain will be delayed until such consensus can be reached. <br>
<br>
We have a vision for Steem and that vision includes consensus.</p>
<p><br>
http://www.mindful.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/patience.jpg</p>
</html>
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@rmach ·
$0.03
I don't mind to wait for a greater good.
Keep up the good work.
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vote details (3)
@silvia ·
$0.67
very nice post @steemitblog
steemit hopefully continue to thrive all time
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@businesswri · 
Looking forward to the next update, when it becomes agreed upon. :]
👍  
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vote details (1)
@hagbardceline ·
$1.29
Is it an option for the developers to divide the changes in smaller chunks in order to be able to convince more witnesses?
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@steevc ·
$0.05
There must be less controversial features that few would object to, but would enhance Steemit. We need the platform to keep moving forward
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vote details (4)
@hagbardceline ·
$2.22
That's exactly my point. If the hardfork is divided into several chunks with each containing only a small subset of, less controversial, features it would be much easier for the witnesses to reach consensus.
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@demotruk ·
$1.99
Everyone wants a closer-to-linear reward curve. There are also some uncontroversial features in HF 17. We should proceed with those.
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@hagbardceline ·
$0.11
Indeed. Once the less controversial features are out of the way, there will be plenty of time to discuss the really tough ones.
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@knircky ·
$3.05
yes reward curve is the most important imho
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@personz · 
+1 this
👍  
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vote details (1)
@timcliff ·
$1.70
There were concerns about several of the changes in the hardfork. The witnesses are planning to continue discussions with Steemit on the best path forward, with the goal of reaching consensus on a set of changes that are right for the community.
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@stellabelle ·
$1.59
if there were fewer things included, it would have a better chance of passing.....
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@tibonova · 
Where are those discussions? Github?
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@steemitqa · 
Good idea. Piece meal it.
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@leongkhan ·
$2.19
I agree with the decision to delay. But we could use some more diplomatic language here:
> Due to the inability of witnesses to come to a consensus regarding Hardfork 17

Consensus is easier to reach if we have discussions with professional dialogues. Messaging is essential to the success of social platforms.
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vote details (4)
@shadowspub ·
$0.30
I really don't think that the witnesses are so fragile they can't handle the word 'inability'. If there is no consensus then there has been an inability to do so. The only remaining question is how exactly are they going to move towards consensus?
👍  ,
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@leongkhan ·
$0.30
I look at the messaging problems our social media competitors like Reddit and Facebook have had and I think we could avoid those by being more careful.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@james212 ·
$0.44
The problem is not with the witnesses sensibilities.   It is the problem of how the general market will perceive a failure to exicute a well publicized an needed update, multiplied by the fact that it is well known that there is currently much internal strife and discord with in the steemit operation.   This failure to update is unfortunate and needs to be communicated to the market in the best light possible.  Words have great influence in mass market phycology, something that all crypto (another bad term) projects live and die by and that few of them understand.
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vote details (3)
@tibonova · 
Not accepting a change by the majority is consensus.
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@james212 ·
$0.31
Agree.  "Delay" would have been a better term here instead of the use of "Inability".
👍  
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vote details (1)
@darth-cryptic ·
$0.31
That just begs the question, why the delay? The answer is because of an inability to reach consensus. I don't see anything negative in that statement. If there is a perception of negativity then it is because people don't understand why the consensus mechanism exists in the first place. Not reaching consensus on occasion is part of how it works. I suppose you could say 'because consensus has not yet been reached' or something but saying there has been a delay doesn't communicate as much information and is therefore, in my opinion, an inferior way to state the facts.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@lightsplasher · 
Consensus is a very good thing.  I think slow and steady progress that is agreed on is best.  I don't mind waiting - amazing progress has been made so far.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@penguinpablo ·
$0.17
Good decision...

![](https://steemitimages.com/DQmXZMJYA4BsvfFY75S6WktEo4DD3dgodwQK2rit7FkjyyK/image.png)

The general consensus is to postpone Hardfork 17...
👍  , , ,
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vote details (4)
@doitvoluntarily · (edited)
surprised!
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@meesterboom ·
$0.33
Oh no. I was literally dying for the nesting limit to be removed. Literally.

Now you have consigned me to ***death***
👍  , , ,
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vote details (4)
@creatr · 
LOL! :)
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@englishtchrivy ·
$0.10
@meesterboom don't worry I'll bring roses when they bury you - lol
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@meesterboom · 
As long as you don't bring more than six ;0)
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@the-ego-is-you · 
It hurts for sure... Commenting and keeping the conversation going ON the platform should be incentivized as much as possible.  Minimizing nested comments at some point would be helpful though, or one conversation could bury the rest.

Oh yes... and do you mind sharing a coffin?  ; )
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@meesterboom · 
That is definitely something that is needed with the removal of the nesting limit. Some kind of collapsing the comments above a certain number. For example 6! To avoid one giant convo dominating them all. Yes very good point.

Lol, coffin sharing commencing!!!
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@happyphoenix · 
Yeah..  I hope the best thing happpen for us. Nicev!
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@lukestokes ·
$5.82
Thank you. Keep listening to the community, and we will do well. If we've learned anything from this, it's that people prefer smaller changes more often. Hopefully, exchanges won't run into problems if we hardfork too often but throwing everything into one major change seems too much like injecting some pork belly project into a popular bill without a line-item veto option. Keeping changes small and modular makes a lot of sense. That said, it's unfortunate efforts will now be spent to revert work already done and/or figure out workarounds moving forward. Clear communication about proposed changes prior to the actual work being done may help avoid wasted efforts in the future.

Please let the team know we value them and their efforts. Please, don't lose the vision for Steem we fell in love with.
👍  , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,
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vote details (29)
@craig-grant · 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqND3CgpPNo
👍  
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vote details (1)
@everittdmickey · 
good idea.
break the hardfork up into subcomponents...
do (or not) each one separately.
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@knircky · 
too bad. But that is what a blockchain is all about. 

thank you for the communication. I would like to hear more and more frequently from the steemit team.
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@timsaid · 
Slow and steady is better than rushing. Steemit will reach its goal and nothing can stop it. 

Great to hear you stick to your roots
👍  
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vote details (1)
@kingscrown ·
$2.57
the thing i dont like the most is 7 days payment.

**1st payment should be as 24 hours like now** just without comment votes extending it (now with 1 big comment vote every 24h we can keep old post trending forever)

 second payment can be 7 days instead of 30
👍  , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,
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vote details (15)
@shadowspub · 
first payment at 7 days seems rather long. I don't disagree with extending the first one but 48 hours would likely be plenty.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@pharesim · 
No we can't, the extension is stake weighted. A vote needs to be as high as all the ones before combined to extend it another full 24 hours.
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@kingscrown · 
are you sure if you upvote with YOUR 100% power comment every 24h on lets say my post, it wont stay trending for days? ive seen abit doing this, i dont have enoug hpower i can extend posts payout times by few hours myself
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@sardrt ·
$0.05
I do not agree to remove the limit of 4 posts a day. The quality in this way will lower and you risk becoming like Rabataba .... To have the votes gets in everything. Better to leave the limit .... and focus on quality!
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@timcliff · 
The community can deal with this one by not upvoting users who post low quality content. If someone can crank out 10 posts a day that are all high quality, then more power to them :)
👍  , ,
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vote details (3)
@tibonova ·
$0.09
4 posts per day rule makes many use cases ineffective, like Twitter, Instagram, Reddit, etc.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@beanz ·
$0.02
I say make it 5 - 7 days, similar to how it extrends from 24 - 24+ hours now, so that last minute votes extend the period as they do now.  The 30 day payout is too long and I see 7 days as a nice compromise to make it one payout only - there is no point to the 2 payouts.
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@timcliff · (edited)
Agreed regarding a single payout window. Removing the 2 payouts was one of the key reasons for the change. It simplifies the blockchain logic. It is also less to learn for new users.

There are various proposals in steem GitHub issue 900 to deal with the window extension. One idea is to have it be a fixed 7 day time, but on the last day - slowly taper off the amount of change that a vote can do, until at the end of the day it reaches 0.
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@dimitrya123 · 
Hello !  What does it mean when a payout is declined ?  I see this post with a potential payout of  $ 23.51 that has been declined and am wondering what that means ?  Thank you for your feedback.  Best regards.
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@timcliff · 
It means that the poster is choosing to decline the rewards. They will not receive payout from the post, and the rewards will stay in the "rewards pool" to be paid out to all the other active posts. The UI will still show how much the post would have made though, with a line through it indicating the payout was declined.
👍  , , ,
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vote details (4)
@dimitrya123 · 
What is the "reward pool" ?  Who benefits from it ?   The ones that upvotes, resteemed of something else ?   Thank you very much for your time and explanation.
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@pharesim · 
@steemitblog will not receive a reward for this post, and there's no curation rewards for it.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@benjojo ·
$0.02
Steemit.inc's efforts are hugely appreciated.  I am very happy about this, I hope with some adjustments, HF17 can move forward with strong consensus among witnesses.  Hard forks need to become routine, despite the challenges that presents.
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@denmarkguy · 
Appreciate the update... does seem like there should be a way to move forward with the items that were NOT "controversial" (or that most witnesses had no significant issues with) and hold off on the items requiring further discussion and changes... make a "17.1" a month down the road... not sure the *"all or nothing"* approach serves the community best.
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@liberosist ·
$5.51
Needs two simple changes to reach consensus - 

- Eliminate the separate comment reward pool.
- Add anti-abuse mechanism to 7-day payout. 

Source: https://steemit.com/steem/@liondani/transparency-witnesses-opinions-on-hard-fork-17-futures

It would seem like the obvious thing to do - make these changes, let Hardfork 17 pass on 28th March, then work on convincing witnesses why the comment reward pool is a good idea for Hardfork 18. Hardfork 17 has been delayed far too long, we need to get moving.
👍  , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,
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vote details (25)
@timcliff ·
$0.08
That's a great suggestion. Makes a lot of sense.
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@snowflake · (edited)
$0.32
I agree, those 2 features are the ones preventing consensus to be reached.
I say take them off HF17 so we can discuss them further, all the other changes are good and non controversial.

EDIT:  Actually I'm not sold on SP delegation either. 

SP delegation will allow large stake holders to completely bypass the current experiment as they will be able to easily delegate power to themselves and use all their voting power.  Users have a lot more power now, even minnows can make a small difference so I don't see the point of this feature.
We need something like an investor class to incentivize large stake holder to not vote.

More on investor class https://steemit.com/hardfork-17/@steemitblog/patience-with-the-hardfork-there-must-be-consensus#@snowflake/re-freebornangel-re-snowflake-re-liberosist-re-freebornangel-re-steemitblog-patience-with-the-hardfork-there-must-be-consensus-20170320t224904820z
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@smooth ·
$0.26
If there is a major problem with 'bypassing' then bots can be told to aggregate all delagated stake votes. Since the delgation is on-chain it is visible. Actually moving the stake to smaller accounts is a bigger potential problem. I agree as you know that better investor-class incentives are needed.
👍  , , , ,
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vote details (5)
@pfunk · (edited)
$1.47
Good comment though I disagree with this: 

>then work on convincing witnesses why the comment reward pool is a good idea for Hardfork 18. 

The reward curve super-linearity needs to be reduced first. This is a change that is wanted by a lot of users, stakeholders, and witnesses (I almost regret not polling about it, but we were trying to keep it focused on what is at hand rather than a future update). However, its implementation might have been premature because there was so much else going on, and it was pulled from this hard fork release.

Reward curve first, see results, and only then talk about a separate comment pool again. Even if a flatter reward curve doesn't materialize the hoped-for comment rewards, a separate comment pool comes with its own issues and baggage.

I want to see a more focused, less "omnibus" approach to major changes being made to Steem for the future, so that the potential positive and negative consequences of any change can be discussed and explored in-depth.

Edit: I have made a post about why the Steem reward pool is better left whole: https://steemit.com/steem/@pfunk/arguments-for-keeping-the-steem-reward-pool-whole
👍  , , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,
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vote details (16)
@smooth ·
$0.34
I agree @liberosist in the sense that is how the process should ideally work, in particular, "then work on convincing". Perhaps that attempt would be successful, maybe not, but that is the healthier process rather than trying to porkbarrel it in or pressure people into it.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@liberosist · 
Sure, I agree with you about reward curve first. I feel the next hardfork could just be the reward curve and bug fixes etc. rolled out in April rather than wait till June and bundle other features. A quarterly cadence makes sense for a more stable product, but the reward curve change seems urgent in getting to a MVP. 

In my comment above I was merely making suggestions from the developers' perspective. They obviously believe in the comment rewards pool, so let them bring forth their argument. The community could then counter argue that the reward curve fix may solve both issues etc.
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@okaye · 
great resteem!
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@dragosroua ·
$0.20
I salute this decision. Looks like being a witness and having your say starts to matter. I'm still keeping an eye on this project and I will encourage every move towards meaningful contribution and improved communication.
👍  , , , , , , ,
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vote details (8)
@edje · (edited)
Is a list available of topics where consensus is not reached? I'm very interested to know.
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@thedegensloth · 
Great now this gives you guys time to fix the phone sign up that is broken. Since i have joined i have seen 15 people who couldn't join because its just straight up broken.
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@creatr ·
$0.04
I have an unanswered question, please:

When HF17 was originally announced, it was stated that **POSTS** could be edited permanently rather than only for a month.... I seriously hope *that* has not changed? Could someone knowledgeable please comment?

I'm asking because I've recently seen multiple summary articles about HF17 mentioning only *comments* as being editable...

I would really appreciate an answer on this, Thanks in advance.

😄😇😄
<a href="https://goo.gl/dIZCsm" target="_blank">
  <img src="https://i.imgsafe.org/b68e74b386.gif" alt="@creatr" style="border:0;">
</a>
👍  , , ,
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vote details (4)
@shadowspub · 
don't think we're going to know that or much of anything until consensus is reached @creatr
👍  
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vote details (1)
@creatr ·
$0.08
OK, thanks. I'm strongly in favor of being able to edit articles in perpetuity. The history remains on the blockchain for anyone interested, but corrections, updates, and additions may continue to be made.

I appreciate your response, Thank You. ;)
👍  , , , ,
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vote details (5)
@timcliff · 
There are two parts to this:
1. In the technical documents, a post is just a root level comment. The change that was in the proposed HF applied to both.
2. As of now, there are no decisions as to what changes will be included in the next proposed HF. I did not see a lot of controversy around this one, so it is _likely_ to be there, but there are no guarantees.
👍  
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@creatr · 
Thank you very much, @timcliff, for the more detailed insight!
👍  
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@smooth · 
Posts can be edited indefinitely in HF17. The announcement using the word 'comment' was unclear.
👍  ,
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@creatr · 
Hooray!

Thanks very much for the clarification, this is excellent news. ;)
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@creatr · 
Hello @smooth,

Now that HF17 and HF18 are "here," is there some magic to editing my older posts? I've gone back to the one I most wish to edit, and see no "Edit" button anywhere... :O

Any light you might be able to shed on how I can edit an old post would be most appreciated! ;) Thank you in advance.
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@rahul.stan ·
$0.03
If the reward curve becomes linear then what's the point of holding large steem power? Can someone explain?
👍  
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@williambanks ·
$0.09
You would have linearly more reward power instead of geometrically and when the price of steem jumps back to $1.00 because a crapton more people choose to hold any at all, you'll benefit from the price increase .  

What's the point of holding massive SP right now?  The pool is constantly shrinking at least in part because people come here and feel disheartened when they see the HUGE cliff they have to climb for their vote to mean anything at all.

Look at what happened when Dan left and the @abit started the experiment.  The fact is "knowing my vote matters" makes me want to buy more but I don't have exponentially more money, so it feels good to know that even a linear amount helps a lot.

There is no benefit at all in massive centralized holding of SP.  All it means is that the distribution is mimicking the real world where we have 1%'rs who get to dictate the financial system to the rest of us chumps.
👍  , , , ,
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@rahul.stan ·
$0.03
Thanks I  get it now but I still have a question. Won't it be easy to game the system by having many accounts?
👍  
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vote details (1)
@dwinblood · 
Bravo.  I am all for experimentation, but I am glad you are seeking consensus.
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@inertia ·
$0.04
http://www.steemimg.com/images/2017/02/28/75888315b89a4.jpg
👍  , ,
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vote details (3)
@richardcrill ·
$1.76
# To add flattening the curve?!?
👍  , ,
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vote details (3)
@snowflake · 
I like your style!
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@freebornangel · (edited)
$0.38
Ya'll said that like it was us and them.
At this point community outrage has made it's self known.
Better to talk in terms of us, and not as a separateness from us, imo.
Decrees don't fly in a consensus environment, thankfully.

I can tell you that I have chosen Steemit over busy on customer service grounds, I would just as quick pick minds over this place, if they had steem, also because of customer service issues.

Somebody is going to have to manage community relations, probably best to crowd source that, but it will be up to Steemit to build the structure that facilitates efficient community polling.

I'd like to see cheetah and steemcleaners supported by Steemit.
@anyx has expressed his disillusionment with the project, and it is very important in the ecosystem, imo.
Either incorporate it, or make a deal with anyx to secure their continuation?

SP  delegation has already been decried in the guild fiascoes, let's not try to make that institutional?
Banding together for power is bad when the republicrats do it, let's not do it here, huh?
If you need to farm out your voting, use @steemvoter just like a regular user.

I don't like changing the payout window, but only on default grounds, this is better than that, but neither is optimal due to blockchain issues, ie, no square roots, bias against changing old blocks, etc,...

Thanks to @smooth and @abit we can put the n2 on the back burner, though I would like to see numbers on the proliferation of sock puppet dolphins equating to nearly the same situation.
Allowing the low sp accounts to matter in the math has excited the user base like nothing else I have seen, up to this point.

Thanks for your time and attention,....
👍  , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,
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vote details (19)
@liberosist · 
> SP delegation has already been decried in the guild fiascoes, let's not try to make that institutional?
Banding together for power is bad when the republicrats do it, let's not do it here, huh?
If you need to farm out your voting, use @steemvoter just like a regular user.

How is delegating Steem Power to 100 curators, or a guild with 100 curators, more "banding for power" than a single whale voting with it? Seems to me like concentrating all the Steem Power towards one whale is more centralisation of power than distributing it among 100 others.
👍  ,
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@freebornangel · (edited)
The power is centralized by the existence of the whale, what are the odds that I get some of that whale love?

The whale can try to clean it up, perhaps by spreading the love, but is that love going to be extended to @skeptic?

If your viewpoint is too intrinsically linked to the power, it makes it harder to view the power objectively.

If @abit and @smooth have proven any one thing, it is that less whale influence equals more influence for everybody else.

That being said, I am not trying to disenfranchise the whales, just asking them to allow us to get big enough to feed them fully before they ultimately feed on us.

Guilds, and delegation of sp, is the power trying to sink a harpoon in us to ride us as best that they can.
It's good crapitalism, but the everyday user won't be happy when the truth becomes obvious, imo.
👍  , ,
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vote details (3)
@snowflake · (edited)
$0.09
@liberosist The problem I see with SP delegation is that it will allow large stake holders to completely bypass the current experiment as they will be able to easily delegate power to themselves and use all their voting power.
We need something like an investor class to incentivize them not to vote.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@dana-edwards · 
Does Steem have the same broken governance of Bitcoin?
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permlinkre-steemitblog-patience-with-the-hardfork-there-must-be-consensus-20170321t011345093z
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@dzboston33 · 
I really appreciate all of the hard work that everybody who is working on hardfork 17 is putting in. I know that it can be very stressful for everybody involved especially when trying to reach a consensus. 

I know that it would be easier to push through with fewer changes. Although, I think a number of changes that are trying to be made is a good thing. We don't want to have to many changes on a constant basis as it may be hard for newer users to grasp what is going on when things are changing to often. Either way thank you again for working hard!
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created2017-03-21 02:12:21
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@cryptofunk · 
How about instapay ongoing forever, someone   upvotes boom 1 cent in your wallet, any flags can nullify future upvotes.
properties (22)
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created2017-03-21 16:58:12
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@penguinpablo · 
https://steemitimages.com/0x0/https://steemitimages.com/DQmbnTxcin93Qv7sjKttGSeAWnnwgoH9WqXdUutto2KtW63/image.png

https://steemit.com/steem/@penguinpablo/finding-consensus
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