Let's talk about flagging and use this recent @haejin stuff as an example. by aggroed

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· @aggroed · (edited)
$218.21
Let's talk about flagging and use this recent @haejin stuff as an example.
![You've got flag.png](https://steemitimages.com/DQmbSrYjSwMGMJE31NThQReD6sATRtbeZMKLBrbkSn66EAX/You've%20got%20flag.png)

Believe it or not the system is actually sorta working in the case of @haejin.  What the fuck is a @haejin?  Well, check out his blog.  He does technical analysis of cryptos to determine which are good buys.  It involves a quantum mentality that patterns exist in the stock ticker that can be used to understand universal trends of stocks and then pick good ones based on knowledge of those repeating patterns.  He's been doing this for 15 years and brings a measure of expertise to the system.  

Does it work?  Fuck if I know, but I believe that he is able to recognize patterns and it does seem some of those patterns are repetitive, but I'm not sure the extent to which it works.  He's made some good calls, but also didn't call the massive correction.  He had two posts in trending at the same time.  One was calling for 23k BTC and the other saying corrections are healthy as we took a dive.

Some of his picks have seen substantial growth, but we're in a bull market.  Some of his stuff seems pretty cool, but there are other explanations.  It's enough that I've purchased a few picks on his recommendations, but I'm not betting a house on it.  I've spoken to him once, and he seems like a normal dude.  I was wondering if he wanted to come on the Minnow Mayor Town Hall with me before all this stuff blew up.

## Rancho <h2>

I found @haejin because another whale told me about him.  He was getting 4000 views on his $20 rewards posts.  It seems a lot of traders are coming here to figure out what @haejin is telling them to do.  

I don't know how Rancho found @haejin, but Rancho is one of the largest accounts on here and a very early investor in Steem, but he's been passive af.  The guy barely ever votes and almost never notices what's going on here it would seem, but some how he found haejin and started hitting his posts, of which there are several a day, with massive $260+ upvotes.  I don't know what he liked because he never commented or anything, but maybe he made some money on a @haejin tip?  Maybe he liked the views to rewards ratio?  IDk, but he started dropping lovebombs on @haejin.

As a result of the extra love on his posts basically everything that haejin wrote went into trending right away.  He picked up thousands of followers and a few prominent members of the community displeased by his share of the rewards pool

## Flagging <h2>

As much I believe that Rancho has every single right to upvote posts to whatever level he wants I also believe this community has the power and authority to use their votes to nullify those rewards.  If the community thinks that the technical analysis posts aren't worth it they have every right to flag.  This is actually how we as a community can turn trending page, which basically just states who has the most votes, into a trending page to where there's some level of consensus on what a good article is.  

Don't like the circle jerk post on a recipe and don't think it's worth it?  Flag it.  

Right now there's a lot of stigma against flags, but as long as we're in linear rewards **if we're not flagging then we're not actually helping to discover content.**  That's bad for us as a platform.  We used to be able to avoid some of this with exponential rewards, but those days are gone.  Right now we're often just discovering who can trade or buy votes the best.  What we really need to do is figure out how to get good content on our front page so that people come here to find good content!

## Violence <h2>

Now, I've stated before and stand by my argument that flagging is a type of violence.  It's financial violence.  You're removing value that other people put there.  I get the argument that it's not yours until pay day, but that's more of an experienced trader perspective than a typical author on the block.  They think it's theirs, and when you take it away through a flag it feels like you have stolen from them, and I tend to see merit in both sides.

But the part that may not always be clear coming from the leader of a peace group is that sometimes violence is ok.  This is do no harm, but take no shit land.  If you think that the reward pool is being raped or taken advantage of then by all means flag.  If they are causing you and this community harm by taking advantage of the system then give them a digital boot up the ass.  If you don't we all suffer from their theft!

If you think the rewards are way out of line then flag.  We're not going to have real content, people, or project discovery if we never flag.

## Gotta be careful flagging <h2>

I've been in short lived flag wars and they suck and this community can behave in ways you don't expect.  So, flagging because of rewards disagreement is actually an ok thing to do.  Sometimes it's necessary for people abusing the pool.  Sometimes it's necessary to bring rewards down to sensible levels.  Sometimes you do it to break up a circle jerk.  It can be scary af because you're stepping into trouble when you flag right now because it's a heated thing to do these days.

Also, it's clouded because at other times people are just being a dick, opinion flagging, or going on offense... at that point the community may not respect your choices.  You may simply be drawing attention to the exact person you're trying to smush and that doesn't always work out well.

If you're a minnow you have to be careful flagging people because you don't have a lot of steem power.  Other accounts can nuke your rep, nuke your rewards, and basically revenge flag you to pieces.  It's tricky business just like a fist fight may get your face bloodied you might just get your financial ass handed to you for the previous week's rewards.

## My point however is that the system is mostly sorta working <h2>

Rancho used his power to vote.
This community used it's power to down vote.

This is actually healthy.  This isn't making Steem a horrible place.  This is actually a good thing for this platform to have some level of balance.

## 3 Unhealthy Parts <h2>

1.  I don't think @haejin's posts are worth 260 each.  I don't think they are worth 0 each.  I also don't think he's a scammer or trying to rape the pool.  I don't currently believe he has some agreement or anything like that with Rancho.  He's not an evil guy cause he caught some rewards.  I respect the flaggers saying he's rewarded too high.  I'd ask you don't take him down to 0, but let him continue to earn something on the posts.  I'm sure you can find a healthy line, but I think 0 is taking it too far.  Let the guy earn at least the 20 he was making before this shit started.  He is bringing a lot of views to the platform.

2.  @haejin you're following a handful of recent bad examples of how to deal with flagging poorly.  You're currently in the spotlight like no other person on the platform.  This isn't a time for a ragequit letter.  You should be thankful to get this attention and work to mitigate some of the fall out.  Shouting "well, I'm gonna take my ball and go home, and you guys are dicks" which is the rough equivalent of what you wrote isn't a good response.  I'd suggest you take a second to ponder a better less angry response and realize that the rest of this community has a point too.

3.  Name calling. It would be nice if all the people could express frustration with actions and less with people.  I know tempers get high, but I would continue to express that what we're seeing is multiple people trying to do what they think is best for them and this platform.  This can be a healthy discussion, but not when it focuses on attacking other people.  That makes a good resolution harder.  So, if folks could try to cool it with some language.  The upvoting whales aren't evil, the flagging whales aren't evil, the author isn't evil, and from what I've seen the commenters aren't evil.  They're just people.  All of them.  **If you could all try to be mildly civil with one another that would be swell.**

## Take home <h2>

Linear rewards needs flagging to be a functional part of the platform that isn't filled with the stigma of flags.  We need it for honest content and people discovery.  I also don't think it should cost the flagger money (they don't receive curation rewards for flagging, so it costs money relative to just upvoting a different post).  Flagging can be an incredibly valuable service to this community because it returns all those flagged rewards back to the community for the rest of us to share. 
 Flags can be healthy, flags can be useful, people upvoting and flagging are ok humans.

Whales have rights to upvote AND flag, and that can be a  healthy part of this place.

If you're getting flagged take a deep breath, realize it might be the biggest thing that could happen to your account, and try not to write up rage quit letters that put you in a negative light.  Be gracious, see the story from the other perspective, and try to work with folks rather than against them.

This place is pretty amazing.  Please treat it and one another with respect even when you disagree and especially when you're mad.
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vote details (418)
@mohammadsaleh ·
The falg is an advertising the country ....
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@chullbull ·
Flagging mean u  won't get payout from the flag post , am I right @aggroed
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@phgnomo ·
That depends on how big is the flag power. 
It may only reduce a part of the payout.
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@kubbyelizabeth ·
Always a great reminder. There are little to no reason to flag. Sometimes communication or the improvement of it is all it takes.
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@themarkymark ·
$0.19
There are many reasons to flag.  If I threatened you, should I be flagged?   If I post stolen or plagiarized content, should I be flagged?   Hate speech?  If I post 10-20 posts a day with low effort content?   Inappropriate or unethical content?  

There are tons of reasons you can and should flag. 

It’s the flagging because you disagree with an opinion or don’t like someone that you should be upset about.  Flagging is a good thing.  No one else is going to clean this community up but us.
👍  , ,
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vote details (3)
@kubbyelizabeth ·
Whenever I think of flagging someone I read the pop up alert. 

Flagging a post can remove rewards and make this material less visible. Some common reasons to flag

Disagreement on rewards
Fraud or Plagiarism
Hate Speech or Internet Trolling
Intentional miss-categorized content or Spam

I heard what you are saying, but if you are new couldn’t communicating expectations be better? 

If someone threats or uses hate speech will flagging end it or cause them to continue in their hate act? 

The core of issues seems to be surround the reward system. We can attempt to monitor the  symptoms, but that won’t ultimately correct the cause of the flagging wars.
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@chullbull ·
Flagging mean u  won't get payout from the flaged post , am I right @aggroed
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@themarkymark ·
$0.08
Flagging means someone is using a portion or app of their vote to remove that much from your post rewards.  

Flags are not always 100% power.  If someone makes $50 for a picture and someone thinks that is too much they can flag it for or only $10-20. Even trough they might own enough stake to take the post to $0.  They may feel it is worth something but not $50. 

On the other hand if someone posts garbage, spam, abusive content, the community and even a single person may feel it doesn’t deserve to be rewarded and it is flagged to zero.  Another person may come by and feel it is and upvote it past the flags.  

Flags and upvotes are the same thing, a disagreement on rewards, they just go in different directions.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@jaraumoses ·
$0.13
<a href="https://imgflip.com/i/21ofdq"><img src="https://i.imgflip.com/21ofdq.jpg" title="made at imgflip.com"/></a>
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vote details (5)
@chullbull ·
Fine , i'm cleared
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@aliakbar2 ·
Great flag
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@stellabelle ·
$0.04
h ahahahahahahahahah
👍  
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vote details (1)
@jaraumoses ·
Hope whale and flag wars end soon......
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@gamersnews ·
$0.02
every community have haters and trolls but we need a true control whit the flag option. maybe ban the option to sellect users or something
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@libertyranger · (edited)
The flagging in the case of @haejin has become hate filled and nothing but an a ego boost for Rich Bernie..
The Bernie Bots are no longer flagging @Haejin to take away SOME of his rewards but they are going in the day before payout and ZEROING his post.

That's right $0.00  So if that is the flagging system kinda working then I am kinda living on Mars.

please note I upvoted and resteemed this post.
even though I don't agree with all of it I agree with the premise that flagging has its place in the platform.
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vote details (14)
@phgnomo ·
Well, some of them still went through with 50-70 payout, even higher payouts.

Check the 9 days ago posts:
Total: 11 posts
Posts on zero: 3
Total earned that day: $ 319,19

Still a pretty good payout, even with all the 3 zeroed posts.

After that, still a lot of posts going through with 50-80 payout.
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vote details (1)
@elizabethjuliet ·
post well received and understood and all precautions would be taken,
but it is best to avoid been flagged, just like prevention is better than cure.
Thanks for sharing
Remember to follow and upvote @elizabethjuliet.
Thanks
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vote details (1)
@barteksiama · (edited)
$0.52
I think the biggest problem was that @haejin made it so obvious he just wants to makes as much cash as he can in short time spam. He was posting 7 times a day with 5 - 10 new lines and all the rest same in each post. He was totally leeching *in a very bad manner*. When he realised he became trendy, he should have spend more time on each post, maybe make them little longer and less of them. He was making some serious money on them and he should have realized It will catch attention of all the big players here on Steemit.

The thing is I think he didn't really care. He didn't care about community or the site. He just wanted to make cash asap and his post showed his attitude. IF only he devoted ~30 min more on each of them, put some thought and heart lots of whales wouldn't be after him.

But he didn't apparenty. That's why I am glad with the downvoters. He probably had an opportunity of his life here and he didn't use it wisely, just greedy.

Most people are here for the money, but his blog and posts were just screeming: "F*** you all just give me all the cash! You try to make quality posts? F*** I don't need to do it I just spam post and take all the rewards". This is a terrible attitude and he should be more subtle about it.
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vote details (18)
@dunsky ·
Thank you for your comment. I was feeling exactly the same while reading the post.
![Follow from @dunsky](https://steemitimages.com/DQmdsT8GSfZbXzdJDWAJLqomH6AYwK3vFmACq3biZzd9hCK/Dunsky_Friends.png)
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@barteksiama ·
Lol I have been downvoted that's retarded xd
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@valued-customer ·
You completely misunderstand what whale flags are, and that may be why you were flagged.

The quality of @haejin's posts are immaterial to the flaggers.  All that matters is the rewards he was taking <i>from them</i> .  39 accounts own the rewards pool, and @haejin was taking more of it than they wanted to part with.
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vote details (2)
@slapbox ·
$0.06
He's been posting that many times a day since well before he had nearly this renown. **Downvotes mean people disagree with you, and this entire point of this post you are replying to is that downvotes are not retarded**
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@chrislo2004 ·
$0.54
either you had been living under a rock or something, sorry but i cant keep this, the way how i look at it, if you really follow his video tutorials, you will understand what a person haejin is. He is those types that are willing to teach (in fact those accuracy is worth like in malaysia if you attend these classes they charge in 5 figures) . and he is teaching and sharing it here, that is why many people followed and learnt, things that they had never learnt before on trading. Which after that many had profited and if you had profited, you keep following. 

You have to do your own research first before thrashing people here... come on... "he didnt cared for the community" ? or "you didnt actually did your homework and wrote this?" adding the f words? cmon, dont add salt and pepper, this is not drama.
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vote details (1)
@barteksiama · (edited)
$0.20
Oh my bad, I didn't realize that. In that case it's all fine. He should keep on making 10 posts a day each with five to seven lines. 

And there is always some place for a little drama my friend! But anyway sorry for using F word. I didn't want to hurt your feelings.
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vote details (2)
@heymattsokol · (edited)
$0.04
You're probably right that Haejin's articles do not deserve the $1,000+ per day that they would be generating without the flags... but also right that flagging to zero doesnt seem fair.

Maybe if Haejin will simply reject payouts on one or two posts per day (since he is making 5+ posts every day), he could convince a lot of the community that he is willing to compromise on his extreme earnings. It might be a practical, if not *perfect*, solution.
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vote details (3)
@phgnomo ·
> Maybe if Haejin will simply reject payouts on one or two posts per day

Exactly. He never seemed to care what was the root of the conflict.
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@captainobviou3 ·
$0.05
The steemit system works...said no one ever. LOL
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vote details (3)
@globocop ·
$0.07
Neither here nor there in this case in my view.

What I am vehemently against is some pip squeaks on the radical left flagging posts for disagreeing with the mere political view, AND getting paid for it AND bragging about it. That bolshevik M.O. didn't survive in Russia, and heck, these criminals won't survive here.
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vote details (1)
@valued-customer ·
I have had the pleasure of being attended to by an account self-described as a professional flagger.  Oddly, considering my rantings, they are the only flags I have received.

I reckon the reason I haven't received more flags is that I don't impact the rewards pool.  @haejin was taking money out of whales' pockets.  

Fixed!
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vote details (1)
@berniesanders ·
$3.61
You're going to be receiving lot more flags, simply because you're a whiny bitch.
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vote details (19)
@skeptic · (edited)
>But the part that may not always be clear coming from the leader of a peace group is that sometimes violence is ok.

Is the violence in self defence or is it breaking the non agression formula? 

Violence is not the problem, the problem is who iniciates the violence. 

There are some major issues with the flagging system, We can pretend its all piza and blowjobs but the fact remains that the whales cant be held accountable for their actions even by other whales. The flag does not work as a defencive weapon, only as an attack IMO.

Hell the same person is still running people off the site daily because he disagrees with something someone says. If someone would actually adress the issue and the actual people causing this ordeal we might be able to com to a solution, we dont though, outa fear we pretend we all dont know who the one persons is and his couple friends. Shits nasty looking once you get in and see whats really goning on under a vail of censorship.
:/

P.S.

Murry X-Mass!
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vote details (2)
@valued-customer ·
No one knows better than you exactly how flags are used to drive people off the platform.

Thanks!
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vote details (2)
@skeptic ·
$0.98
Sucks watching the same episode of steemit over and over.
lol
When is season two going to happen already?
xD
👍  , ,
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vote details (3)
@themarkymark ·
$2.63
I have been involved in this particular issue as I provided some data on the situation.   I’ve yet to flag but I have been targeted by 10-20 Haejin fans who have been flagging me and sending hate threats.   One threatened to beat me up/kill me and dox me (not sure what order.  I also lost multiple large witness votes as a result. 

I still believe one person taking over 200k usd/week from the reward pool from one person is unhealthy.  I can’t vouch for how good Haejin’s content is but posting 10+ a day with one major vote is not good for steem.  Then threatening to post 25+ times a day to do even more. 

https://i.imgur.com/vFNpfZD_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

The entire situation is a mess and shows some of the problems related to decentralization and lack of moderation. 

Flagging is heathy for the community when used properly and not emotionally. Unfortunately the use of one case causes the other. 

I’m really jaded with the entire voting system.  For 4-5 months I never self voted.  Now I am not sure.  Steemit practically encourages it with default checked option “upvote post” and now even comments have this option. 

If someone spends thousands to millions to by stake who has the right to tell them or expect them to donate it all away.  In my opinion the system is flawed at the core.  Both scenarios suck and will always lead to issues like this with no clear good guy or bad guy.  

I don’t even know at this point. 90% of what is on steemit boils down to self voting in some way or another.
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vote details (23)
@aggroed ·
$0.05
I tend to think self voting on your blog posts is ok, but self voting every tiny comment you make is usually poor form, but that's just me.  It's your stake to do as you please.
👍  , ,
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vote details (3)
@theinsideout ·
Yeah, as I wrote above, people do it once in awhile for visibility. Doing it constantly is bad manners.
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@valued-customer ·
You aren't acknowledging the reality behind Steem distribution.  Almost all Steem was mined, and that mined Steem is the stake held in the accounts of whales.  

Look at @transisto and @randowhale's selfvotes, if you want to see how this power is maintained.

What we do, as minnows, is immaterial, as @berniesanders will grow his power by flagging aspirants into dust, keeping SP concentrated in as few hands as possible.  

39 accounts own the rewards, and if we get uppity and are threatening their control, they can make us go away.  That's what flagging for excessive rewards really means.  It means keep your hands out of my cookie jar.

![2017-11-24-LevelShares-EN.png](https://steemitimages.com/DQmdAV147qVLnv6rDqUT98mCTb4Pc67tDZsvM2jPdsvCmNs/2017-11-24-LevelShares-EN.png)

All of @randowhale's substantial votes go to @berniesanders and alts.  He's keeping the rewards pool his, not saving it for the rest of us.

Merry Christmas!
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vote details (5)
@aggroed ·
$0.03
Umm... I've been complaining about the distribution on the platform for almost 1.5 years.
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@mikeycolon ·
$0.03
"39 accounts own the rewards, and if we get uppity and are threatening their control, they can make us go away."

It's much like real life where less than 1% of people own 99% of the world's wealth. The haves and the have nots.
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@onthewayout ·
$1.79
As far as a can tell @transisto bought his stake not mined it. The transfers from the exchanges to his account total more than 800k steem starting November of 2016. He has transfered about half of it to the @newsflash account,

Furthermore if you look at his account it was not mined and it also was created on July of 2016...months after most of the initial steem was already mined. If I recall correctly I think he invested about 400 BTC (I could be wrong and It might have been another investor but I am almost certain it was him).

Don't assume that all the whales had their staked mined. It is because of people like @transisto that Steem has any market value at all.
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vote details (2)
@holothewise ·
$1.90
Yeah, I really don't want to be a person who up votes my own posts either. It feels like that defeats the point, right? It's for others to decide the value of my content.

That said, other people seem to be far more 'liberal.' I've seen posts where people respond to good comments favorably, but STILL up vote their own response rather than the person engaging them's comment! Narcissistic much? 😂
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vote details (4)
@theinsideout · (edited)
Well, sometimes people upvote for visibility and not narcissism. The problem with Steemit is the same as the problem in any creative field. There are 1,000 talented people for 1 who gets noticed. What does it take to get noticed? That's usually marketing or very good luck. My puny upvote isn't worth much, but if I had a lot of SP, I could see sticking an upvote in once in awhile just to move up the lists.

Note: This isn't really related to the discussion, but it's just what your comment made me think of. Thanks for your comment.
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@stellabelle ·
The problem lies in the fact that most humans are not able to deal with emotions effectively. The other issue is that this system is inherently flawed, and most likely always will be to some extent, if money = power. The truth is, the problems of the outside world, where money = power are actually exacerbated and made worse in here because in here people have absolute power, with no rules, or enforcing structure to diminish power. I've thought a lot about this recently, and I have come to similar thoughts as you. It feels that the central design is flawed, and what would it take to correct it? What would that look like?
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vote details (3)
@jakeybrown ·
NIce post, I agree the rewards are out of line, but I thought it completely fair seeing him get 20-40 each post, people were finding value in his analysis. I think the power some whales have to vote up is enormous, do those same whales have the same capabilities on downvotes? Just curious
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@katouna ·
Bonjour, quel superbe article, il est très bien détaillé, ça à dû vous prendre beaucoup temps, pas vrai ?
Vous méritez d'être plus populaires sur la plateforme steemit, car votre travail fourni et passionnant et très impressionnant ;)
Ravie de vous connaître, mon nouveau ami.
J'espère que tu pourras aller voir mon contenu sur mon blog ;) et tu donne ton avis, ok ?
https://steemit.com/@katouna
Bonne journée ;)
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@nnnarvaez ·
$0.07
ça ne marche pas ici mon cher. 

Et encore moins si tu spammes en Français des posts en anglais. 

En plus avec un commentaire tout fait... 


This doesn't works here friend, even less spamming english posts with a french canned comment.
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@katouna ·
Lol
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@valued-customer ·
Vraiment!

Merci!

Feliz Navidad =)
👎  
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vote details (1)
@meno ·
In my own small way I wanted to contribute to this conversation...  I pretty much agree with everything you've pointed out @aggroed and also would like to point out something that some of us might fail to consider:

 If I make a post and I get lucky enough to catch me a whale vote (it's happened before) and I see my post with a $100 pending payout, how much money have I made?

 If you started to calculate curation rewards and current SBD price you are getting ahead of yourself. Until the day the 7 day period has expired, I have literally not made one single cent.

 I guess the point I'm trying to make is that we might be thinking of the payout in the wrong way. It's not money that we have, its money that we could potentially have, and this distinction is key.

   Let's say the reason why my $100 post was flagged down to $50 was because another whale thought it excessive that @meno was getting $100 for his post. Imagine that the post pays out after the seventh day, how much money did I lose? if you said or thought $50 you are missing my point again. I lost nothing, because I never had $100 to begin with.

   The same post could also have been ignored by all the whales, and only because of my Steemian friends and a few dolphins collect say $30 on seven days. Does this mean that I lost a hypothetical $70 of the alternate dimension? Potential Payouts are just that, "potential payouts", and if we are making plans with money we don't yet have, we are in for a rude awakening.

if we can think of upvotes/downvotes and potential payouts with this logical lens, we should be able to not react so emotionally to flags.
👍  
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@themarkymark ·
The **potential** rewards argument is brought up often and is in fact the heart of steemit
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@meno ·
I've read it before yes... I guess I'm speaking to those who interpret the events as if Bernie has broken into the safe of Haijins house and taken all this money from him...   No such thing has happened, and truth be told he is still making some great gains next week. 

Im not arguing for, or against... Everyone can do what they want with their SP of course (i know you agree) I just want to pour a little bit of facts into an emotional conversation.
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@valued-customer ·
I suspect you are neglecting to see the perspective of the voters.  That $100 represents not your potential earnings, but the earnings the voters wanted you to have.  The $50 flag took their VP - not your earnings.

It is a violent destruction of the VP of upvoters.

39 accounts can do almost anything they wish, because they have all the power, that in Steemit is centralized in their wallets.  They control the witnesses.  @aggroed serves at their pleasure.  If he steps out of line, they'll put a witness in that serves their interests better.

@haejin was taking money from @berniesanders.  @berniesanders fixed that problem.

Now @berniesanders can use @randowhale to upvote himself and make more profits.  

The purpose of flags is really to protect the profits of whales, who own the rewards pool.
👍  
👎  
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vote details (2)
@maticpecovnik ·
$0.03
I never really knew flagging wars were a thing on here, but I am completely new to the platform and may be blissfully unaware. 

I have flagged some posts that I thought were spam, but never a post that I thought doesnt deserve the rewards it got. I guess it is simillar to downvoting in reddit. 

I think the impact of whales right now is simply too much. Right now, if you get noticed by a whale and he upvotes you for 200 + $ that is mainly due to luck and not quality content. If whale votes were somehow caped to some value of SBD, maybe the circle jerk and other simillar stuff would not be as profitable. Or maybe with every next upvote you do on the same content poster, the vote gets less and less percentage of your vote powet. This would also cut down on the circle jerk.

I may have strayed from the point, but I think this is just the other side of the same coin, that flagging is designed to be...
👍  
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@phgnomo ·
the issue that started all this drama wasnt how much he was getting per post, but how much he was taking from the pool per day.
Lots of posts go around with 200+ payouts, and no one care much. But they dont post 10 times a day with small posts, that grabs 200+ payouts on each one.

A big part of the community thought it was absurd, and flagged to reduce his reward.
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@maticpecovnik ·
$0.03
Aaaah now I understand. But because most of this was due to being upvoted constantly by the same whale it could be regulated by reducing the vote power per consecutive vote on the same person. There would be real curation in this way. I think, at least.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@valued-customer ·
>"...I have flagged some posts that I thought were spam, but never a post that I thought doesnt deserve the rewards it got."

This is because those rewards weren't being taken from YOUR rewards pool.  Your % of equity in the pool is hardly impacted, no matter how much trenders get.

This is vastly different for @berniesanders, and his 38 ilk on the platform.  Indeed, his ROI is all that matters to him, and completely drives his behaviour on Steemit, and the substantial extraction of rewards from that pool by @haejin an extraordinarily powerful motivator for his flags, which are in turn a weapon perfectly targeted to maximally impact @haejin, whose motivations for participating on Steemit are monetary.
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@endatu ·
Nice ho ho ho😎
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@art-universe ·
$0.12
Word! If somebody dont like haejin he just shouldnt read his posts. Al those stupid wars on Steemit are unecessary.
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@phgnomo ·
Probably a lot of people don't. But as soon as the way he do his thing started to affect every other user reward, things escalated.
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@valued-customer · (edited)
There are only 39 accounts that own the rewards pool.  The rest of us are only cash cows, that support the price of Steem.  If any of us does like @haejin, and starts taking too much money out of the pockets of whales', this is how we will be handled.

That is the true purpose of flags: to protect the profits of whales.
👍  
👎  
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vote details (2)
@themarkymark ·
$0.11
It isn’t a matter of reading or not reading.  It is a disagreement if he should get such a large share of the shared reward pool from mostly one person who may in fact be him.  The fact he does it 10+ times a day is a big part of the problem.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@frank1in ·
from all the above, one simple conclusion can be drawn: this person simply wanted to earn as much money as possible and as soon as possible and in a short time. But karma played in the end with him in the opposite direction.
I'm new to the platform, but I already understood the essence of some big players (whales)
I myself would like to call everyone: be honest with each other, let us be in peace and be afraid of others.
thanks, this is an interesting article
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@leprechaun ·
$0.19
How many people do not want to earn as much as possible?
👍  
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vote details (1)
@valued-customer ·
At least one: @ranchorelaxo, who hardly ever votes.
👎  
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vote details (1)
@clumsysilverdad ·
$0.05
Keep the peace, offer peace, broker the peace ... Let's keep things moving in the right direction, we all know no system is perfect.  Let's not twist the benefit of transparency into perpetual bickering and backlash.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@thatsweeneyguy · (edited)
$0.19
Flags are just as important for deciding how much the public as a whole agrees that a post is valuable as upvotes. It's not violence, nor is it very often a personal thing. I use flags every single day. Of my 10 full power votes per day, at least 2 of them are Downvotes. 

The original Steem Whitepaper explained all this very clearly, but it was quickly swept under the rug, because people only want to think of **getting** money, not that money balancing out when someone disagrees. 

The *potential* payout for a post is called that for a reason, and there's absolutely no reason why it should always go *up*. That number should be hidden until a post pays out, letting votes and flags fall where they will until the algorithm finally determines how valuable the post is.
👍  , ,
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vote details (3)
@valued-customer ·
The algorithm is this:  39 whales have 93% of SP.  They have all the power, as a result.

We don't matter to them.  We can police ourselves with out little flags.  If we start taking too much money from the rewards pool, they can fix that.  That rewards pool belongs to them.  We are allowed a little, so that we will create upwards pressure on the price of Steem.  The entire user base is necessary for that, but no individual is.

@haejin started dipping into their pockets too deeply.  @berniesanders put that money back in his pocket.

Problem solved.
👍  ,
👎  
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vote details (3)
@thatsweeneyguy ·
$0.07
You replied to my comment, but not my point. You seem to be so hung up on the "stake gap", that you, like many others, are completely disregarding the way this platform was intended to be used. What other people do should have no affect on integrity.
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@gamainvegas ·
Thanks for posting. Learning how steem works.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@techslut · (edited)
I agree with pretty much everything you wrote. However, understand that for minnows trying to make a couple of dollars here and there, getting flagged can hurt. So yeah. I've written a rage quit post when bernie was downvoting my hard work and calling me names. It's a natural response and so I wouldn't judge anyone for responding in such a way.

For whales my advice is - small votes, lots of them. If you care about this community, three digit upvotes on two line posts are not the way to show it. Got extra VP and want curation rewards? Go trail curie and steemstem at a relative vote of 10% and encourage quality content and a better distribution of the reward pool. It's not hard to set up, really.
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@aggroed ·
You know I argued that linear rewards wasn't horrible, but that going from 40 votes to 10 votes was a mistake for this reason.  I still mostly think it was a mistake, but now also have some mixed feelings about it.
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@nnnarvaez ·
I think the rewards iscussion is a totally different topic here, the rewars discusision is to accomodate for investors actually buying steem and make it whorth their investment. 
(Instead of renting and vote selling as is happening now)

We need to bring to the table discussions about how to make the trickle of SP reaching new comers and minnows increases... 

The problem is not circle jerks or bad reward allocation, the problem is that there are not 300 of us anymore. 

People got used to big rewards when inflation was 95%, then when it changed to 9.5% still the user base was small and there was still a lot for everyone, now that same 9.5% has to be shared amongst more of us and the rewards come to the table.

What i mean is that the real solution is to address the 99% problem not the Rewards whichis a 1% problem.
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@valued-customer ·
Why should the 39 whales want to distribute their profits out of their wallets?

This makes no sense...

The trend on Steemit has been to increasingly concentrate Steem, not more widely distribute it, and this concentrates profits in their wallets.  It's working exactly as they want it to.

From their perspective, your advice is not just silly, it's dangerous.  It would cost them money!
👍  
👎  
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vote details (2)
@techslut · (edited)
$0.05
Or it would help increase coin value. Besides, where is this loss you speak of when all I suggest is voting for 20 different posts instead of one.

But yes, I've heard whales say that the most profitable thing for them to do is just upvote themselves a lot.
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@cristinamuah ·
Exactly!
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@tonygreene113 ·
$0.09
Let the flagging wars continue. Watching how the battle should take place only helps a plankton sized community member like myself.
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@basicstoliving ·
I will agree we need the flagging system. It is not perfect but it does work to a point. We also need to have conversations as to why there was flags on the posts too. I will not hurt near as bad if someone knows why he/she was flagged. What I hate and it pisses me off the the arrogance of certain people that flag and him thinking he is better than other people on Steemit. He may have more Sp but we are all human and everyone puts their pants on one leg at a time. Merry Christmas!
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@arslanhyder ·
Informative post. I am new to steemit and I don't understand this flagging thing. If a post has a 100$ payout then if someone flags that post, does the entire payout drops to zero?? Waiting for reply...
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@valued-customer · (edited)
The amount the payout is reduced depends on the SP and weighting of the flag.  

The answer is: it depends.  It can take it down to zero, and is happening to @haejin presently, because he is drawing too much out of the rewards pool owned by the whales.  They're willing to let us have crumbs, because we, the community, put upwards pressure on the price of Steem, and they need that to make money.

If we, as @haejin did, start costing them too much money, this is how they fix that, and keep their money in their rewards pool, so they can profit from their stakes.
👎  
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vote details (1)
@arslanhyder ·
$0.03
Thank you now I got it...
👍  
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vote details (1)
@onthewayout ·
$1.83
It only goes down to zero if the account(s) flagging has enough steem power. Small accounts should not even bother to downvote, it's better to get out of the way.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@arslanhyder ·
Thank you for the reply... I got it..
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@aussieninja ·
$0.05
Yeah, I struggle with this whole thing... I think part of the problem is that a flag feels like it should be reserved for people breaking the rules... not to unvote someone else's vote.   Ideally there would be an upvote, a flag and an unvote/downvote for content you don't believe is worth a significant portion of the reward pool.

This whole situation is tricky... I stopped following @haejin a long time ago... I found his posts lacking in important information... and every time I asked further questions, like the timing he expected on his calls (minutes, days, months, years?) I'd just be referred to his tutorials... which all feels either lazy, scammy and just trying to get views instead of helping/educating his target audience.

And I haven't quite forgiven him for suggesting that Monero would drop to $85... I wanted to believe so hard... so hard!

I have no idea what he has such a huge religious following, it seems like if people make money they praise him but everyone who loses money either blames themselves or doesn't speak up?

I completely agree with what you've said... I don't think he deserves $0 at all, and I'm not thrilled with the berniesanders bully technique, but his posts aren't worth $200 either.  His content is doubled on YouTube so he's effectively double-dipping, and does seem ridiculously zealous to make as much money as quickly as possible.

I'd be happy with his posts to make the $15-$40 range. He is a hard worker and has apparently helped a lot of people (I just don't quite understand how..)
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@ginquitti ·
I actually got caught right in the middle of this flag war and i ended up being flagged myself. I’m just a steemian who wants to use the platform and interact with people. I want piece with this whole issue. 

My opinion is that a flag shouldn’t subtract value, but instead be a marker for a moderator to notice and go see if rules are being broken. But i want peace between the groups here because the bickering does nothing but inflame the situation. I think a serious talk would go a long way to resolving some of the issues people have with each other
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@cron ·
$0.19
There is no moderator on steem. We are all responsible for other members. This is a beaty of the system. No moderators and no censorship.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@ginquitti ·
Totally. But something with the flagging system should change. Because if a user goes “rogue” and flags everything, how do you stop that? I dont think flags should punish as harshly as they do because it creates an imbalance on the platform. New users with low power can be silenced. Which goes against what this platform is about. I just think something should change and these problems need to be addressed by creators. What would you say needs to change? Or should nothing change?
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@aggroed ·
$0.19
we're not getting middle men.  Central authority is what this place is fighting.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@ginquitti ·
Totally. But something with the flagging system should change. Because if a user goes “rogue” and flags everything, how do you stop that? I dont think flags should punish as harshly as they do because it creates an imbalance on the platform. New users with low power can be silenced. Which goes against what this platform is about. I just think something should change and these problems need to be addressed by creators. What would you say needs to change? Or should nothing change?
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@valued-customer ·
Central authority is what this place is built on.  93% of power is in the hands of 39 accounts.  That is all the power, and grants all authority.

It is a complete fantasy to suppose that Steemit isn't centralized.

Power is more centralized on Steemit than in any other example I can think of.
👎  
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vote details (1)
@alieone · (edited)
I got flagged by a whale because I upvoted a post from someone he didn't like. He did some compensatory upvotes for me later but the point is a whale can destroy a minnow. Is that fair? I suppose some will argue it is not but no matter how much we want it to be otherwise, we can't make the world perfect. The platform works a certain way and people either learn to work within it or leave. If the former, they gain more power and can use it to make things better and if the latter, a bad system will lose users and eventually fail. Free market rules!
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@leprechaun ·
$0.02
I am going to implement a Steem like system for my website, except it will not be blockchain at all and flags will be suggested tags the file should have rather than downvotes.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@valued-customer ·
This is why ~11% of accounts, including all the bots and multiples, created in 2016 on Steemit, remained active as of Nov. 2017.  Almost everyone leaves.  

As long as this is balanced by a continuous influx of new users, upwards pressure on Steem is maintained, and the profits of the whales are fine.  The profits of whales are the central purpose of Steemit, and the system is the best design for that purpose the devs can create.
👎  
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vote details (1)
@tecnosgirl ·
$0.05
Some people have been taking flagging too far some times with new people spam that because it works on other sites they think it will work here. Mainly because they have been misinformed from a newbie that doesn't know better yet. You know the comments from the newbies f4f, stuff we all get and then some. I am taking the approach to try to explain why they shouldn't do it. Especially if see they are posting good content other wise. Figure we want good content creators and don't want to chase them off. 

Flagging does have a good purpose when used properly. As Spiderman's Uncle told him in one of those Spiderman movies, with Great Power comes Great Responsibility and we all have to try to use the responsibility in the best way we see fit.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@preparedwombat ·
$0.12
>Other accounts can nuke your rep, nuke your rewards, and basically revenge flag you to pieces.

Basically, don’t bring a knife to a gunfight.
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@aggroed ·
or a recreational nuke fight
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@valued-customer ·
Just don't take money from those who it belongs to.  This was @haejin's sin.

That's what @berniesanders fixed.  He put the money back in the rewards pool where @randowhale could upvote @bernisanders, @transisto could upvote @transisto, and the whales could keep their profits in their pockets.
👎  
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vote details (1)
@phgnomo · (edited)
$0.03
It's good to see another big player positioning itself, and in a balanced way.

I followed the beginning of this "crisis" and my first thought was "This is ugly".

But here is my take from someone that also like to see both ends of an history:

First, @haejin were posting for a long time without raising too much attention. He had well payed posts, but nothing absurd. His 10 posts a day were anoying, but easily avoidable to those that didn't care about what he was saying. Therefore, there was a balance, and everything were peaceful.

Things started to hit the fan when @ranchorelaxo started voting for him.

The problem with his votes is that until that point he was totally inactive. No posts, no comments, no votes. That aroused the suspicious that @ranchorelaxo was another @haejin account, or were working together with him (and i assume i was one of people that thought that).

Here starts the problem. @ranchorelaxo vote started to unbalance things, bringing each of ten daily posts to 200-300 reward each. That meant 2k in rewards, around 20k per day with small posts, 6% of the reward pool.

Not a surprise that a big part of the community started to see this as an unfair share.

Now enter @berniesanders. Altough i don't actually agree about how he started the "uprising" using mostly emotions and not many facts, he was the one that called the matter to the attention of the whole community. 

At that point, everyone started to position in favor of one or another. And in the way that steem works, whoever gather the most combined power have the advantage.

And here @haejin starts to lose. Not because he was getting massively flagged, but because he didnt tried to understand why this was happening. Everything that he wrote talking about the matter wasn't about to try to reach an agreement, or how he could do things better.

All looked like he didn't cared about the community, only about how he was losing money by the flagging, asking other people to "buy steem power to fight back" to upvoting him, or flagging the flaggers.

A lot of people commented on his posts about why this was happening to him, and he ignored them all. Not a single one of them (not everyone were agressive) were answered.

Also, his followers also didn't seemed to care, and that didn't helped them either.

But i think @berniesanders started to making some mistakes. Flagging the small fish was a bad move. They were angry, and saying stupid things, but they were still blind. Bashing them definetly didnt help them understand what really was the point of the flags.

They were the collateral damage.

Personaly, i would start to support @haejin if he started to understand the kind of damage he was doing, and adjust the way he worked. Simple and easy, reduce the amount of daily posts to 4 max. He would keep his reward but not hurt the rest of the community.

Would still not read what he says.

About @ranchorelaxo, since you said you know and talked to him already, we have at least one witness that he is not a fake account. This could have come sooner from him. **(EDIT: As @aggroed stated below, he didn't talked to @ranchorelaxo. My bad, misread that part. Then it seems he still haven't said anything about his involvement)**

Anyway, Steem is still a good and big potential platform, but have a lot to improve. But the devs need to be involved in this kind of drama to understand what cause it, and find ways to mitigate teh damage through the platform code.
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@aggroed ·
I've only spoken to @haejin.  I haven't had a conversation with Rancho.
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@phgnomo ·
Sorry, my mistake. I will edit the comment.
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@libertyranger ·
Best stated rational I have read so far.
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@steemitqa ·
By the way, it could be simply as, I'll give you free **extra**advice and in return I'll upvote your posts. A subtle collusion of sorts.
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@bashadow ·
> A subtle collusion of sorts.

Or one could look at the wallet and see:
> 16 days ago	Receive 0.010 SBD from haejin	I am very grateful for your upVote! Thank You! If you'd like a crypto analyzed, please don't hesitate to let me know!

So it would appear that he did not ask for the vote, but appearances can be deceiving. Me I kind of feel sorry for @ranchorelaxo, he is about to be, (most likely), have some serious wallet spamming going on.

Most of this @berniesanders drama flagging stuff is most likely also to become history, as it looks like he is powering down and transfering a lot to @ngc.

So maybe with a new year the downvotes can continue without creating all the drama.
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@themarkymark ·
$0.03
What I find is ironic, Haejin followers are flagging the crap out of anyone not on their side and making vile threats.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@hitmeasap ·
Yeah... I've been here since July 2016 and I've got 4 downvotes in total. Until today. Now I've got 7-8 today alone.. All due to Haejins followers.
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@valued-customer ·
The devs do what they are told by the market.  Currently the market is in the hands of 39 accounts.

They have built exactly the system they were hired to produce.

I am sure they do a good job.
👍  
👎  
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vote details (2)
@dhn0411 ·
$0.02
I don’t see it as a conspiracy between haijin and ranch I. That’s how social media works, and business works. Put out a lot of product consistently until someone big finds you. And you explode. People on the sidelines think you just blew up magically but they don’t see all the work you did prior.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@phgnomo ·
Maybe, maybe not. When something isnt transparent, neither me nor you are are wrong.

There is no evidence, no statement, no proof of anything, all we do is speculate with the little information we have.
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@onetree ·
I love your well reasoned response to this issue, it is what helps the community to grow.
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@cron ·
$0.68
Flagging is a violence and I would not accept any arguments that it could be "healthy" for the community.

Would you accept that war is good for humanity? No? Same thing. You could argue, that war brought progress and modern goods, but it is just clever argument. Direct perception of violence don't produce clever arguments.
👍  , ,
👎  
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vote details (4)
@themarkymark · (edited)
$1.52
Flagging is not violence.  Flagging is downvoting. 
It is the tool provided by the platform for the community to police itself.  

If someone posts inappropriate content, stolen content, spam, scam, abuse, or exploits the system then flagging is the solution.  

Steem Inc does not police the platform, it is up to the community to police itself.  

It is no violence, it is not an attack, it is simply a downvote.   When someone upvotes you they feel your post should be worth more, if they downvote they believe it should be less. The community decides what they feel is fair. 

Emotional flagging is a different story, flagging because you don’t like someone’s opinion or just want to fuck with someone is a different story and to some extent I can see that as violence.  

If you believe all flagging is bad then you don’t understand the platform properly.

You have to remember we all share the same reward pool and if one person abuses it, that means others who don’t are short changed.
👍  , , , , , , ,
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vote details (8)
@shantamcbain ·
I have not flagged of yet as I don't yet now much about the process. I have wanted to down vote a post because I don't ether agree with the content or that the content is harmful. all the post about speculation on a given currency I think needs to be down voted as it is a carry over from the old system of something for nothing. More preciously others expense. I will look more into the flanging as a protest against inappropriate content.
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@valued-customer ·
Stinc has arranged the code per the desire of the 39 accounts that matter.  They hold all the power, because they hold almost all the Steem.  Only other whales can counter their power, and most whales would rather make profits than waves.

Whale flags are different than even the flags of half the minnows on the platform together, since they do not equal one whale flag.  

This is comparable to the effective power of the US nuclear arsenal against villagers in Syria.  There is no contest, no accountability for whales.

We can police ourselves.  We cannot police the whales, and the whales aren't interested in wasting their money on it.    Because of the gross inequity of distribution of Steem, flagging is broken.

It is broken on purpose.  Absolute power corrupts absolutely, and the 39 whales of Steemit have practically absolute power.

They own the rewards pool, and @haejin has realized that.
👎  
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vote details (1)
@just2random ·
Nice summary of recent events.
Regardless of how good the analysis is, spamming several times a day isn't healthy on this platform when each one is making the trending tab.  

It's clear this is done to maximize rewards and not to educate his followers.
And sounds like a classic pumping strategy. 

Buy the coins, then flag its potential for a gain to a loyal audience, sell, then rinse and repeat with another coin.
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@everittdmickey ·
$0.10
twisting yourself into a pretzel like that must be painful.
there is no 'yeah but'.
something is either right or wrong..
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@aggroed ·
It's not that hard.  You have control of your stake.  You can use it to upvote or flag.  Don't be a dick either way.
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@themarkymark ·
The world isn’t black and white.   Very few things in the world is right or wrong.  

Murder is wrong, except when it is to save millions or your family from a killer.
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@everittdmickey ·
$0.02
yeah but..
if you have no principles nothing is wrong.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@valued-customer ·
Everything is both right and wrong.  It all depends on more factors than we can compute.

One man's trash is another's treasure, and one man's freedom fighter is another's terrorist.

What's good for frogs is bad for flies.

@berniesanders was just stopping @haejin from taking <i>his</i> rewards.  The rest of us don't matter.  When, if, you start getting too much of their rewards pool, you'll find out who's it is.  @haejin knows, now.
👍  
👎  
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vote details (2)
@everittdmickey ·
$0.03
certainly
If you don't like my principles.
I have others..
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@nicnas ·
$0.32
One of his little minions went shit crazy after I responded to his multiple threats, some being easily construed as physical. He decided to go and downvote just about everything of mine. I dont think I downvoted anything of his. But its contradictory to be whining about downvotes and then go downvote the shit out of people. AND no I wont remove the screenshots of comments that he keeps posting threatening me and others. He seems to think they disappear when he puts his creepy little faces in the places of his comments.
👍  , ,
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vote details (3)
@techslut ·
$0.12
This sound worth looking into...
👍  
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vote details (1)
@kivsha ·
I can't agree more - every one has the right to vote or flag as much as they want. But we do have the right to change the rules in a way people will not just use their power to make certain posts get so much of the pool - except in extreme conditions, say - 2k upvote regardless of their worth will open the door to more massive revenue to the post based on the value of the upvote and not the number of them - to make it short: there is a revenue limit as long as you are under X votes.
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@valued-customer · (edited)
>"...we do have the right to change the rules ..."

When you can control the witnesses, you can make whatever rules you want.

That's why the rules are what they are.

They're what those that control the witnesses want.
👎  
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@gold84 · (edited)
$0.43
@aggroed thanks for clarifying lots of this things regarding rewards, the reward pool, and flagging when needed, to keep things fair and to help find quality content on steemit, and hopefuly one day steemit will be recognized for for being "the place" to find quality content  . If things are done in a democratic way, the better they are designed to achieve democracy, the best will be for the entire community.

Regards, @gold84
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@leprechaun ·
$0.07
I have flagged posts in the past and that's okay.  The biggest problem is some  do not flag a post but instead flag the person.  That is they flag an author's posts regardless of content.

I would get rid of flagging all together or change things in a way that only the ones I follow could affect the part of the reward that I contribute by upvoting.  

Flagging creates hostility.  I have decided to quit flagging.
👍  
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@dubvdave ·
Check out the comments BS is leaving on Haejins articles. He really does act like a Steemit version of Eric Cartman, from South Park!
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👎  , , , , , , , , , , ,
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vote details (13)
@postpromoter ·
re-aggroed-let-s-talk-about-flagging-and-use-this-recent-haejin-stuff-as-an-example-20171225t224314134z
You got a 16.25% upvote from @postpromoter courtesy of @aggroed!
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@steemitqa ·
I think it comes down to common *courtesy* of the platform and etiquette. Posting 10 + post a day  & claiming $250+ rewards is just plain disrespectful to the community as a whole imho. He has no problem doing it seems which makes me question his motives.
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@jesta · (edited)
$0.12
Initially I had really conflicted feelings about comparing downvotes to violence, but I might be coming around a bit. However, I've got a bit of a different take on it and I don't think "violence" is the right word and likely implies a more negative stance than it deserves.

Hostile? Aggressive? I'm not sure what the proper term for it is. What I can compare it to is the unadulterated PvP (Player vs Player) games of the late 90's.

Steem is a game of war, it's poker, it's a sporting event. It's a game that involves skill and aggression towards other real people. It's also a game where not everyone is going to win. 

I can compare this to Ultima Online, an online game. In the late 90's, this was my first experience with this type of social phenomenon. It was a character based role-playing game with hundreds of other real people online. The world had it's set of rules and players were allowed to do anything within those rules - including fighting, stealing and competing for resources with other players.

Sound familiar? It should, this is basically what Steem is. 

Players of Ultima Online were split by this freedom the game allowed. Players became thieves, bounty hunters, killers and really the first incarnation of "trolls" (that I had seen). While playing, what benefited you might "hurt" someone else. These people were playing by the rules of the game, much to many people's dismay.

A huge numbers of players within the game absolutely hated this, and I'm sure many people ragequit. Others really enjoyed it from both sides, both players participating in these hostile actions and those trying to defend others from it. Personally I loved it - it added a thrill, the struggle of good vs evil, and involved you more than just some dumb game where you got points. 

Ultimately, the company behind Ultima Online implemented a "solution" because of these complaints and probably to help their bottom line. They split the world in two, one peaceful (Trammel) and one aggressive (Felucca), and allowed players to travel between these two worlds. The aggressive world was always a more rewarding place - but the safe space existed for those not willing to risk what was theirs.

For those who enjoyed the game the way it was (myself included), this felt like a cop out. All of the players who couldn't handle the stress of the competitive game could now relax though - and from a business perspective they probably retained a lot more players this way. 

I'm not entirely sure if wisdom can be gained from the actions of a 90's video game - but you certainly can see the parallels. It's the same type of competitive game but that doesn't mean the same solutions would work.

**What I think everyone needs to remember though is that you're choosing to play this game.**

It's unfortunate that these rules aren't explained to you, some of the rules make no sense, and that certain factions are unfathomably powerful. But these are the rules. The rewards pool is a finite resource that anyone can compete for - against one another, using the rules that are set forth. 

Disclaimer - I've also been upset by the allocation of the rewards pool on multiple occasions for multiple reasons, and I'm sure people have been upset with it's usage regarding me. Sometimes I'm rational though :)<div class="chainbb-footer"><hr><em><small><a href="https://chainbb.com/let-s-talk-about-flagging-and-use-this-recent-haejin-stuff-as-an-example/@jesta/re-aggroed-let-s-talk-about-flagging-and-use-this-recent-haejin-stuff-as-an-example-20171225t17560802z">Originally posted</a> in the <a href="https://chainbb.com/f/undefined">/f/undefined</a> forum on <a href="https://chainbb.com">chainBB.com</a> (<a href="https://chainbb.com/chainbb/@jesta/chainbb-frequently-asked-questions-faq">learn more</a>).</small></em></div>
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@aggroed ·
So, are you saying fork or tokenize a second version of steem that works the same way and doesn't allow downvotes?  I get the analogy, but I don't understand where you're going with it.
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@lextenebris ·
$0.03
Actually, I think that would be an interesting change – but I don't think there is enough demand in the marketplace (and by that I mean the social media marketplace) to split the very limited audience and have two viable communities.

But if I were going to reimagine the whole platform, changing the way downvotes work across the board, making the primary holders of vast repositories of SP explicitly active administrators, and removing the ability to upvote your own posts (at least requiring someone who wanted to do such a thing to jump through the hoop of employing a bot) would be a good start.
👍  
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@jesta ·
I wasn't really going anywhere with any suggestions, it's just how the system works and the game we are currently playing. 

If the community feels strongly that this isn't how the game should work, then it's gotta be changed. But in the mean time, these are the rules!
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@lextenebris ·
$4.75
> I can compare this to Ultima Online, an online game.

This is a very apt comparison, and I'll point out something very important.

Ultima Online is *dead.*

Sure, there is still one shard which almost has enough of a population to run most of the game events, on a good day. If you get lucky. But as a going concern? It runs on pure nostalgia, and certainly not as a growth platform.

Look at the MMO industry in its aftermath. We may have learned one thing for absolutely sure about game design: the vast bulk of people have no interest in unmitigated PVP. None. That ship has sailed.

Or rather, with more precision, people prefer their PVP to be the focus of the game and not something that gets in the way of playing the game. The core design loop which drives PVP has been better broken out into the FPS and MOBA genres, which focus the experience specifically down onto people who are interested in the very specific experience of going head-to-head with other people in a competitive environment.

Perhaps unsurprisingly, those online communities are widely observed to be some of the most toxic to both new players and those who tolerate the other people who play in order to get to play.

The MMO genre, specifically focusing on player experience and player creation, has aggressively moved away from pushing people into direct conflict unless they specifically opt in to that experience. One of the best and most successful examples of that is found in Guild Wars 2, where PVP is isolated into an entirely separate area that anyone can go to whenever they like, but that they are not forced to go to – and the PVP experience does not affect the day-to-day gameplay of the average player.

There's a reason that World of Warcraft absolutely stomped UO in the marketplace and continues to do so to this very day. From the beginning, by design, they recognized that the majority of people are not interested in the PVP experience and they allowed for non-PVP servers where accidentally running into someone who is looking to destroy your experience couldn't happen.

Is there a World of Warcraft PVP-centric community? Absolutely. How is it considered as a community? Absolutely horrifically toxic, to this very day.

(Asking "where is Mankirk's wife?" will only serve to provide me PTSD flashbacks of the Barrens.)

And all of this is in the context of a game – which I remind you is pointedly the exact opposite of the context in which Steemit in the steem blockchain is being pushed. At least in a game you know that you might be in for conflict. In a game, you at least have the chance by design of getting to experience the whole point of what you're doing. It's to play the game.

Steemit is not a game. It's never been sold as a game. It is poorly constructed as a game. Outside of a very small number of people who enjoy demonstrating mastery of systems by their ability to get bigger numbers – I don't actually believe there are a lot of people who are playing the game as you describe it.

This is supposed to be a platform through which creators can be rewarded for their work and people can be rewarded for finding good creators. That's it. That's how it's sold. That's how it's promoted.

That's at complete opposition with the idea that the experience should be driven by "competition with other people for limited resources." That's the exact opposite end of the spectrum, especially with as much as how people who support the platform like to talk up the idea of freedom and mutual community support.

Now, we both know that's bullshit. We both know that your characterization of the platform as, at the highest levels, just people griefing each other and trying to manipulate the mechanics to get the bigger numbers, regardless of anything else, is exactly what's going on.

Same people would not promote that as a positive aspect. They wouldn't support as a positive aspect. They would recognize that it is oppositional to the stated goals of the project.

Steemit is a shitty game, taken as a game, if it's to be a big, partly automated, PVP-fest where you just try to get yourself and your friends bigger numbers while decreasing the size the numbers other people get.

Steemit is poorly designed as a social media platform, in part because the above description is activity which goes on constantly – to the detriment of people who want to use it as a platform for creation, for being rewarded for doing good work, and for actually being social.

Yes, these are the rules – with all of their implications, poorly thought out interactions, and it necessarily toxic effect on what the platform is promoted as it is constantly sold for. It's not suitable for purpose as a game, it's barely suitable for purpose as a social media platform, and pretending that it's okay that's the case – well it's disingenuous on many levels.

I see that as a lot of problems. As a game designer and a ludophile, it makes my skin crawl to see a set of mechanics so at odds with what the experience is advertised to be.

Moreover, if someone is interested in the longevity of the platform, either as the backing structure for a cryptocurrency or as a social media platform in and of itself – this should not be an acceptable state of affairs.

Yes, everyone here is choosing to play this game. This game which is poorly sold, poorly documented, poorly structured, and deeply unfair across the board. They choose to stay. Many of them choose to do so right up until the time they figure out how badly designed it is – and then they leave.

Most of the numbers I've seen suggest that that happens within the first month.

No game can continue to survive with a retention rate of under 8% across a one month.. No social media platform, either, really. Not long-term.

That's a problem. That's a huge problem.

The narrative parallel between UO and Steemit is terribly apropos. If you could travel back in time 10 years and tell UO to get rid of its obsessive fixation on PVP and take steps to modernize the user experience, UO might be as continuingly popular as World of Warcraft.

But it's not. Not even close.

I'd prefer to go a different way.
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@valued-customer ·
>"Steemit is a shitty game, taken as a game, if it's to be a big, partly automated, PVP-fest where you just try to get yourself and your friends bigger numbers while decreasing the size the numbers other people get."

>"Steemit is poorly designed as a social media platform, in part because the above description is activity which goes on constantly – to the detriment of people who want to use it as a platform for creation, for being rewarded for doing good work, and for actually being social.>"

I have come to see Steemit as a rewards pool owned by 39 accounts who hold almost all Steem, and the rest of Steemit as the support mechanism. 

Including my opinions.
👍  
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vote details (2)
@jesta ·
$0.08
I didn't mean to suggest that this is the way Steem should be - I'm merely pointing out that this is how it exists as of today.  The sheer amount of drama sucks and it's driving people away from the platform, just like the unadulterated PVP of old did in the first generation of MMOs. I tried to make that clear, that even despite my enjoyment of the that thrill, it wasn't what was best for the game and changes to the system were required. 

> Yes, everyone here is choosing to play this game. This game which is poorly sold, poorly documented, poorly structured, and deeply unfair across the board. They choose to stay. Many of them choose to do so right up until the time they figure out how badly designed it is – and then they leave.

Being as deeply involved in Steem as I am, I've been irrationally upset by all of these issues on multiple occasions. Nothing substantial has changed over the last year within Steem in any regards. We've been continuously playing this same game of whack-a-mole and the attrition is high. People are getting griefed and we have no substantial ways to protect against it, because of how the rules of the blockchain are written. 

What's helped me though is at least realizing what the current system is, accepting that, and then moving on to look for ways to improve it. The community isn't going to change it's behavior for the better, the system itself needs to change it's rules and enforce a specific behavior. But in the mean time, this is what we've got.
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vote details (3)
@geekorner ·
$0.11
First of all, great comment, especially from someone interested in designing and analyzing systems, specifically in games.

That said, I'd like to note that all social interactions, and all institutions are essentially, well, *games*.

I'm new to Steemit, but I've discussed it with some friends, and the problem with scalability is huge. How can this system properly reward all creators when said creators are forced to compete with one another? When the system actually works worse in its stated goal the more successful it is in terms of audience?

I think the scalability of rewards is definitely something that will have to be dealt with, or even the people who stick around and "succeed" right now will have to go away.

There's one more thing games teach us. If you perform an activity for no compensation, you'll keep on doing it quite often. But if you get compensated, and then the compensations go away, you'll likely stop.

And as Steemit grows, more and more people will get less and less rewards, even if the rewards scale at an equal rate to the userbase.

The way trending is borked is also part of it.

I'm not hoping for much, so I'm using this to help incentivize me to write, because I love writing, and to get rewarded for the effort I've been putting into my writing for years now. It'll last as long as it does. And maybe, just maybe, changes will be made.
👍  
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@valued-customer ·
>"What I think everyone needs to remember though is that you're choosing to play this game."

This is true.

However, I am not here to play the game of Steem.  I am here to mine criticism, and this game is causing the ferment of opinion on Steemit to skew towards pandering, and if it gets too out of line, is censored.

I am unaware of another platform that potentiates the intellectual interaction here, and so I stay.

I am uninterested in my personal rewards.  Oddly, this has largely prevented me from being flagged.  

Maybe today that will change.

XD

Thanks!

Merry Christmas!
👍  , ,
👎  
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vote details (4)
@jesta ·
$0.02
Merry Christmas to you too! 

Those are just the rules we have at the moment - they can be campaigned to change, but are what we've got :)
👍  
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@stellabelle ·
$3.00
I am upset daily by what I see making giant rewards, but with regard to you, I never am. There are very few people who make it to my "list", but you are at the top. I love the tools you've made for us, and my life would suck without Vessel, so basically, you deserve everything you are getting.
I have similar feelings about the recognition of this being a game, and in fact, I've been playing my own version of this game from day 1. I was playing a different game from most of the early players.....As the early ones were all trying ot figure out how to "game the system," I was busy trying to figure out how to best build my empire. I had a vision of what I wanted to do in life from 10 years ago, but i never had the proper tool set. Whereas most people only want riches, and lambos, my game involved something a bit different.....I hope that someday in the next few years it will become very obvious why I have been playing this game. It's best not to reveal plans, only results. 
For me, this place is a mental petri dish. It reflects what's inside of you. If it is war you want, you will get that. For me, I always saw this place as an evolved reflection of the what the indigenous people of the world called a "gift economy". That what I always saw in here, and what I will continue to see. Planet Steem is going to physically morph into various hallucinations by various people, even if it materializes in other dimensions, or blockchains.
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@jesta ·
> For me, this place is a mental petri dish. It reflects what's inside of you. If it is war you want, you will get that. 

Haha, it totally is and so true. Wise words, it totally is what you make it.
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@aburmeseabroad ·
It's so crazy..as a minow , I feel like I can't even voice out or disagree some of the things that I do not like here as it's scary  to get flagged, my earning through very much hard work will be gone or so does my reputation.
👍  
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@freedomno1 ·
Well I'm sure there are some lurkers among the minnows that will activate their battleship aka get a ton of Steem if someone pisses them off enough in a flagging war ^^
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@conradsuperb ·
There are two sides to every story as you say and I can see how both have emerged... I think you're right on about Haejin taking the ball and leaving the field.. this platform needs this sort of scuffle to build and to grow from. Fantastic post here, as are all of your posts. Keep it up @aggroed
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@valued-customer ·
>"...trending page, which basically just states who has the most votes..."

This is incorrect.  Those on the trending page aren't there because of the number of votes, but because of the value of the votes they have received, and this often has no relationship to the number of votes at all.  

All that matters is who the votes are from.

I completely agree with you that flagging is a form of violence.  It is a direct conflict between upvoters and downvoters.  The posts that are flagged are merely collateral damage.  The flags are direct financial attacks on the VP of those that upvoted the posts they flagged.

There are 39 whales on this platform, and they completely control the code, because they completely control the witnesses.  The vast majority of all VP that elects you and other witnesses comes not from minnows, but from those 39 whales.

If you speak out against they system, don't run your witness the way they want it run, or otherwise irritate them, you will not be a witness of note for long.  

The VP of the 39 whales completely controls the trending page, and there isn't anything anyone else can do about it.  The trending page is exactly the product of the decisions of whales, and no one else.  

We minnows can flag who we want, upvote who we want, and we have essentially no impact.  Flagging does not work, because only 39 accounts can achieve anything by flagging.  Those 39 accounts hold almost all the Steem in the world, most of it mined at practically no expense to themselves.  

Their possession of that Steem is solely due to their ability to take advantage of the flash mine before Steemit existed, and there is no mechanism that can potentiate anyone now to become competitive with them.

Further, you mistate that the community flagged @haejin.  Just as @rancho isn't the community, neither is @berniesanders.  @haejin is merely the reason that @berniesanders attacked the VP of @rancho, who is really the victim of the violence of the flags.

My witness proxy is utterly inconsequential to you, and you know it.  My flags, and upvotes, are equally inconsequential to the platform.  At best I can help krill and minnows with my VP.  

The only way I have to affect the platform is via my voice, and that is never going to be able to overcome the lure of lucre.  Steem is power, and only 39 accounts have any on this platform.  The rest of us only exist here because of their tolerance.

They don't need any single one of us, and ragequitting may be the very solution sought by flaggots when they drop bombs on accounts.  There seems to be a constant flow of new accounts presently, which suffices to support the price of Steem.  Accounts which threaten to become whales, threaten the concentration of power on Steemit, and that is a damn good reason to force them to quit.

I don't think you're being completely forthright here, because your account is no less hostage to whales than any other.  Indeed, you have much more at stake than almost anyone on the platform.

However, you do we minnows a disservice by talking out both sides of your mouth about our power to flag.  There are only 39 flags that matter on this platform, to the community.

None of us have them.  You can flag me into oblivion, but you can't do much to the platform, to help, or harm.  @berniesanders can.  He can flag us all into oblivion.  He can do any damn thing he wants, until he pisses off another whale, as he has done before.  There are only 38 people that have any say over what@berniesanders does, and neither you nor I are one of them.

Merry Christmas!
👍  
👎  
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vote details (2)
@taurus1983 ·
@originalworks
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@originalworks ·
originalworks
The @OriginalWorks bot has determined this post by @aggroed to be original material and upvoted it! 
<center>![ezgif.com-resize.gif](https://steemitimages.com/DQmaBi37A5oTnQ9NBLH8YU4jpvhhmFauyvgg3YRrEJwskM9/ezgif.com-resize.gif)</center> 

To call @OriginalWorks, simply reply to any post with @originalworks or !originalworks in your message!
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@dhn0411 ·
$0.02
Yes! This drama is exactly what steem needs of it’s going to blow up big. 

https://i.imgflip.com/21ou67.jpg
👍  
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vote details (1)
@aqsaali ·
Great knowledge thanks for shearing it.
👍  
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vote details (1)
@acwood ·
Ah, my friend, @aggroed. It seems you have started another lively discussion. Well done.
The main problem I see is the Steem community's age. Nothing is known for sure. It is like creating a constitution. Who am I to decide what is quality content or how much they make on a post or how much of a percentage they want to vote. I like a variety of articles and if I find them of interest or they give me a laugh then I will upvote them perhaps leave a comment or even resteem their article. It is not even always about the article but rather the person that has written it. It is not, or shouldn't be, about money. All relationships change depending on what we allow and what we allow now has few limitations. I don't flag. I think it is a waste of my time. Who gets to write this Steem Constitution?
And whoever does please remember the golden rule.
 *Got to go now, just saw the Steem Police looking in my direction.*
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@cryptopie · (edited)
$0.03
Here at steemit we have the potential to go big and bigger and if we do somebody will raise an eyebrow and does the flagging but if the  flagging has a good point then why not but then again a minnow cannot just flag lest he will destroy himself.
So the flagging must be done only by a respectable whale that has the moral authority to do so and has all the reason for returning the rewards for the masses.
Flagging is a delicate matter but the rule that should be used for it is "justice"
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@lextenebris ·
And herein lies part of the problem: there is no moral authority.

None. It doesn't exist.

In fact, the very idea of it is a fictionalization. It literally cannot exist in this context. To do so would require individuals to step forward, make themselves known, expose at least what they want us to believe about them, and receive that moral authority by individuals believing that they possess it.

Never going to happen.

There is simply no reason to trust any of the whales as it currently stands, and I say that even while feeling that a couple of people may be – surprisingly – be trustworthy. But my individual judgment should not and cannot be taken by others to be moral endorsement.

Beyond that, "justice" is a surprisingly flexible concept. Individuals differ on what they believe it to be just on a regular, daily basis. If we are going to use this fuzzy ideal as some sort of guideline, somebody is going to have to step forward and assert what they think it should be – and they will have to have the actual authority, whether it be deliberate mechanical power or an appeal to the masses, to make it stick.

Again, never going to happen.
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@valued-customer ·
>"...the flagging must be done only by a respectable whale that has the moral authority ..."

I submit this is impossible, and also, that being flagged, censored, and demonetized only improves my reach on the platform, generates goodwill, and can only destroy my rewards and reputation, which only 'destroy' someone whose goals depend on them.

Frankly, I am glad to gain the boost to my voice being flagged provides.  Rather than being destroyed, I might say:  @berniesanders, if you strike me down, you will make me more powerful than you can imagine.

Flagging by whales has little to do with anything social.  It is demonstrably used to protect profits, and @haejin's case particularly demonstrates that.
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@pibara ·
A minnow can (and should) flag IMHO. Many low powered unchecked comment-spam bots and silly "great post" cut-paste posters that are quite safe to down-vote.
👍  
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@kevinwong ·
Flagging is not financial violence though. It’s a proof of stake system.. it’s not like I can reach into your account and confiscate what you have
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@razorback-holler ·
Haha that’s great... wtf is a @haejin .... Ive been on here a week I hear about him every day
👍  
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@allcapsonezero ·
They should actually change the name from Steemit to "Do no harm take no shit land".  Beautiful.
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@edicted ·
Someone recommended [in one of my posts]() that I check you out.  I was talking about all the problems I see with Steemit so far even though I've only been here a week.  I suggested adding a trial by jury system to handle flagging.  In general, It seems like we have pretty similar views.

That link is broken on purpose because someone told me it was rude to do even if it was on topic.  Is this right?  I'm totally new to blogging and this person did not speak English as a first language. But she said Ill get flagged into oblivion if I keep doing it.
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@teamsteem ·
$0.73
Great post!

About the violence part. We should really get this right. I'm not sure this is violence.  

The Steem rules are public and so when someone invest in Steem, they agree to the rules. 

Violence happens when someone does something to someone else that the other person didn't agree to. 

When we invest in Steem we agree to the fact that people have the power to redirect other people's reward back to the reward pool. 

I understand that people don't agree with the flags they receive but overall they do agree that the whole system, flag included,  is ultimately benefiting the whole or else they wouldn't have invested. 

Whether Steem flags are violent actions or not, Steem flags should have the effect of reducing the real world use of violence.
👍  , ,
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vote details (3)
@steemitfriend ·
$0.51
interesting to know!
👍  ,
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vote details (2)
@introvertspeaks ·
Nice post! Very helpful for us to learn great. Lol

All I could see is Anarchism in its purest form. This is Steem blockchain in action. Feel the beat of freedom. Political theorists should be able to learn a lesson from this sort of social experiment and make up their own minds again backed by solid empirical evidence.
👍  
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@ropaar ·
It takes so much going around to get the message out there.  This is worse than reading a college paper.
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@ssophiee ·
I'm new here. can someone help me and say how can I get followers? Thank you so much, I really need your help guys ;(
👍  
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vote details (1)
@fourfourfun ·
I’m not particularly down with flagging something I don’t like, but that is perhaps because don’t like is a rather broad term.

Someone on here ripped off a post word for word by someone I follow that so happened to mention me in it. It was only because of Steemify that I noted this.  So I happily went in and flagged.

Now I’ve also seen another personality brought to the platform who happens to do one of my most detested topics, namely “complain about SJW”. I personally think anything like that stokes a particularly bitter online war where no participant comes off looking pretty, plus is one of the reasons why Twitter is such a shit state atm. Dislike as I do, it’s not flaggable by my own internal code of ethics. I disagree at a fundamental level, but I’m not using the mechanics of this place to make a negative statement. I just don’t upvote.

I’m definitely down with helping ensure the spirit of the community and certainly by coming down on those copy pasting for cash. ([Here is a prime example.](https://steemit.com/life/@rigaronib/can-ugly-christmas-sweaters-cause-ugly-people))
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@arcange ·
Congratulations @aggroed!
Your post was mentioned in the [hit parade](https://steemit.com/hit-parade/@arcange/daily-hit-parade-20171225) in the following category:

* Comments - Ranked 4 with 168 comments
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@pawsdog · (edited)
![Cyberbullying.jpg](https://steemitimages.com/DQmS4uk1hXii1599a2ykVgebZswxYfhB3kHFKFSq1Ds2eEA/Cyberbullying.jpg)


How about my blog as an example of unhealthy? or that randowhale smashed my account for writing an unbiased article that likely proved that bern photoshoped and image to deceive and incite. Where are the talented writers and other minnows in all this that are being bullied and stepped on for simply having an opinion.. Here read for yourself... if you don't like it down vote, if you do share it.. Regardless the whole situation has really hurt my image of the platform.. minnows posting in fear, afraid to comment etc..  sad, very sad...

https://steemit.com/steem/@pawsdog/the-curious-case-of-the-errant-comma-haejin-berniesanders


Or this one.. any idea why this was downvoted? What rule did it break? ... 

https://steemit.com/steemit/@pawsdog/down-voted-for-expressing-an-opinion

Why build rep, try or invest money in what is quickly proving to be a failing concept and broken business model. If your not an early adopter or a millionaire you can expect the same freedom of press as those in North Korea.. Same concept, bots are his soldiers that come to your home drag you into the street and execute you..
👍  
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vote details (1)
@fractalfreedom ·
So let rich folks fight over the work of others? Does not sound like a good solution. Actually it sounds like facebook and google and the robber barons of old. This platform stinks and it has proven it over and over again, anyone on here for any amount of time has made a post showing all the glaring holes in steem. If it wasn't for the money NO ONE would be here! I come back for a few posters and the hope of making a few bucks and a comment or to and promote the ideas and posts I like. The everyday users are getting used here to test a broken system that is run on linux servers for the profit of a few. Hardily a currency or a blockchain.
Steemit proves to me that massive public media is a electronic zoo.
Democracy is mob rule, steemit is mob rule. The game is rigged folks.
Live by the sword, die by the sword. Everyone is protecting a magic pot of money, and excusing the mistreatment and bullying! And yes stealing payouts solely because they were not going to you or your friends. Nice existence! Have fun with your limited thinking lynch mob late night flag runs and your bot programming quagmire.
👍  
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@impatientoptim ·
The only way that Steemit is going to continue as a live system is of it continuously adapts. Although, what is the Steemit Principle behind removing his "influence"?
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@personz ·
> Now, I've stated before and stand by my argument that flagging is a type of violence. It's financial violence. You're removing value that other people put there.

Yawn.
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